New Hemmings Cover

[njsteve]

I believe the issue people have is that you created counterfeit documents. That is the problem. Yes, there are cars with counterfeit docs, and VIN swaps, and all sorts of shady baggage out there. But when you proudly display the fact that you have had these docs created for your car, that raises the hackles on a large percentage of people out there who place a high value on authenticity. It tarnishes an otherwise masterful piece of automotive artwork.

This reminds me of the defense that real counterfeiters try to use (unsuccessfully, I might add): "I'm just making a copy of a Van Gogh, or a $100 bill, or..."

If you put the original artist's name on the bottom, i.e., Van Gogh, then it makes it a criminal act.

If you used your own name, that's a little different. For example, if your name is Bob Smith and you put "Bob Smith" on the bottom of your "Van Gogh" then it is obvious to all, now and in the future, that it is not a counterfeit. In this case, you could have put your name as the selling dealer, salesman, buyer, etc, not actual persons and businesses, then it would be obvious to all, it was not counterfeit.

I am not saying that what you did is a crime (It applies only to specific items like currency or if you tried to pass it to a buyer representing it as real) but when you make up documents that have an original dealer instead of your own name, it turns into an avalanche down the slippery legal slope.

By the way, cudos on not changing the VIN tag. If you had, and then had your unnamed associate make up "new old paperwork" to match it, you both would have graduated into committing several federal felonies including Conspiracy, altering/removing/defacing a VIN number, mail fraud and wire fraud.

It's a beautiful car, and you've done a great job building it, but if it were me, I'd get rid of those "documents" and enjoy the car for what it is: a car you built to satisfy your own personal wishes of having a 68 302 ragtop. You should have the right to enjoy it without the headaches and rumors associated with the NOP (new old paperwork).

[Born30YrsLate]

Some may also be wound up about the fake docs because some of the original docs to real car were stolen a few years back...and to my knowledge have not resurfaced?

[Charley Lillard]

I have seen the car at a car show with all it's paperwork. You may tell a few people that come up and ask about it that it is a fake but 99% of the people walk by see the paperwork and assume it is real. On two different threads I think I suggested that you also put a sign up stating the paperwork is fake. I think my suggestion was ignored both times. That leads me to believe your motives are other than educating the public as you would like us to believe.

[1969l78]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the issue people have is that you created counterfeit documents. That is the problem. Yes, there are cars with counterfeit docs, and VIN swaps, and all sorts of shady baggage out there. But when you proudly display the fact that you have had these docs created for your car, that raises the hackles on a large percentage of people out there who place a high value on authenticity. It tarnishes an otherwise masterful piece of automotive artwork.

This reminds me of the defense that real counterfeiters try to use (unsuccessfully, I might add): "I'm just making a copy of a Van Gogh, or a $100 bill, or..."

If you put the original artist's name on the bottom, i.e., Van Gogh, then it makes it a criminal act.

If you used your own name, that's a little different. For example, if your name is Bob Smith and you put "Bob Smith" on the bottom of your "Van Gogh" then it is obvious to all, now and in the future, that it is not a counterfeit. In this case, you could have put your name as the selling dealer, salesman, buyer, etc, not actual persons and businesses, then it would be obvious to all, it was not counterfeit.

I am not saying that what you did is a crime (It applies only to specific items like currency or if you tried to pass it to a buyer representing it as real) but when you make up documents that have an original dealer instead of your own name, it turns into an avalanche down the slippery legal slope.

By the way, cudos on not changing the VIN tag. If you had, and then had your unnamed associate make up "new old paperwork" to match it, you both would have graduated into committing several federal felonies including Conspiracy, altering/removing/defacing a VIN number, mail fraud and wire fraud.

It's a beautiful car, and you've done a great job building it, but if it were me, I'd get rid of those "documents" and enjoy the car for what it is: a car you built to satisfy your own personal wishes of having a 68 302 ragtop. You should have the right to enjoy it without the headaches and rumors associated with the NOP (new old paperwork).

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well said

[PeteLeathersac]

What great comments...I especially like the burn the documents idea!!!

As I stated in a previous post, I have trouble understanding how if the Wagonmeister has true concerns for those who may get shaken on cars w/ similar 'pedigrees', why be so clandestine about where the fictional POP's etc were obtained?.

Yes everyone's free to do as they choose w/ their own cars but personally I can't help but wonder why any car w/ restamps and fake documents (admitted or not) keeps appearing on this of all sites?.
Also why when this car makes appearances here is anyone surprised some are opposed to it?.

Seriously, athough there's some here who are Ok w/ BS documents, tags and restamps, one of the main reasons I enjoy it here is I know of no other site where like-minded knowledgable enthusiasts have always been against the very thing threads like this seem to be condoning?.

No argument the car itself is cool and the Wagoneer may even be the greatest guy, but if in any way we're starting to accept and praise BS documents, tags and restamped cars here, that's a very slippery slope and concerning for what I understood this site has always solidly represented and stood for more than any other?.


~ Pete

[copo69]

Jim Mattison, WE NEED THOSE CHEVROLET RECORDS,NOW!!!!
By the way, not to hijack this thread but any news on this?

[wagonman]

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen the car at a car show with all it's paperwork. You may tell a few people that come up and ask about it that it is a fake but 99% of the people walk by see the paperwork and assume it is real. On two different threads I think I suggested that you also put a sign up stating the paperwork is fake. I think my suggestion was ignored both times. That leads me to believe your motives are other than educating the public as you would like us to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charley Lillard,

I'm sorry if you thought i ignored your previous post.That was not the case.I simply chose not to reply to them in an open public forum.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.........

Thank you........

[wagonman]

I think the Hemmings Muscle Machines cover will explain it all....

ONE OF NONE....

I will display this at any future car shows.

[wagonman]

Thank you all for your compliments,emails and pm,s.

I have received plenty of emails and pm,s re:my documention.I was asked to have it and even the car itself destoyed!

I totally agree with your concern.Everybody should realize that i'm one of "you" and not "them".I am on your side when it comes to fake doc's, POP's etc...I would like to take this time and reassure you that the docs will be destroyed if and when the car leaves my possesion.I originally did it for pure novelty.To make myself a real looking car with totally pure innocence.Then i displayed the docs on team camaro with pride.OMG! did i get a bunch of PM's Emails...etc....I had no idea.....I then sat on it for a while.Just thinking about what i should do.Then i wanted the people that arent so "in the know" to know that this practice is going on for monetary reasons and not just for fun or novelty like my car.I would like everybody to watch out in thier purchase of a fully documented car...I had learned some very interesting points of view from people.It is truly amazing how some people think both intelligently and not so intelligently.But i have heard even more great opinions...

Ok,this is the part where i can simply lie to you and tell you that i will destroy all doc,s.But i'm not a liar.So i will once again reassure you that the docs will not leave my possesion with the car.I will set these docs aside and not display them anymore.These doc's POP etc..cost me thousands of dollars.So rather than simply destroy them,i will keep them aside.i will surely not destroy the car.

I will only dislay the car for what it is and not what it is pretented to be.Hemmings loved the car!
Now to further prove my honesty we all have Hemmings Muscle Machines which is a major publication proving the car's fake pedigree.That will be the only document that will go along with my car if/when i ever sell it.....

........John........

[JimM]

I suppose I "just have to" add my 2 cents too, why not, eh?

I "know" John from Team Camaro, and I've met him and seen the car up close and personal at last years Car Crazy show in San Meteo.

The car is simply fabulous.

John is a great guy, and totally honest, if somewhat niave.

I'm uncomfortable with the paperwork too. I can certainly see the "potential" for a serious problem at some future date.

Regardless, Kudos on the musclecar of the year nomination, as well as the 8 pages and cover in Hemmings!