THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28

[Kurt S]

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Kurt,

It has become clear that you are here on this site to supress free speech and push your CRG "agenda".

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OK, so supporting my arguments with facts somehow suppresses free speech? I'm not following.
I'm talking, you're talking, and we're not swearing.

And what exactly is the CRG agenda?
The CRG site says it's "Accurate, Objective, Useful Content".


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Since you are no obsessed with the firebird issue Lets go there shall we?

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I'm not obsessed with it. It was the only thing that you responded to.

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These gentlemen were specific on the TT change in '68 to ready fisher for Firebird production, because this is what they were told by supervision at the time. Despite the fact that Fisher Norwood was ready - Market forces and firebird sales did not require the Production start for firebird there until mid '69.

I do not think it is productive to insult the retired workers.

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Interesting. So you're saying the tag change that occurred in 68 across all Chevrolet (and GM I believe) models and plants was due one new product coming to Norwood, one that didn't happen until mid-69? Thought you said it happened in 68? Never mind that Pontiac used the same style trim tag in 67.
I'd say it was a corporate wide change due to changing federal regulations (the conformance text on the tag).
Market forces weren't even a factor. It was a production issue - they needed to prep LOR for the Vega. And it took a month of work to prep NOR for the Firebird.
Oh, and just how did I insult anyone?
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You have an opinion based on your 15,000 car d base of which you are not really clear on what % is 1967 exclusive....

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67's - 8,700 out of the 15,500 in the db.

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Your statement simply confirms what I have said previously on this topic and is what the Retiree's told me happened at the hole on the Chevrolet side.

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That part is explained in the assembly article. And you stated it above too. It causes a little bit of variance, but only by a maximum of 50-100 VIN's (normally much less than that). Not enough to be evident or significant to any of us.
Almost noone in the plant looked at body #'s or VIN's anyway. If you go out in the plant and asked about a VIN or a body #, they would look at you funny. The rotation/sequence # is all that mattered.

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We can keep chatting on this till the web dies or the moderators shut it down - you are not going to change my mind because what you and I believe is really not that far off the mark. I believe the Fisher Body unit number did matter in 1967 and thus the Trim Tag was relevent and you do not.

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The trim tag and all the info on it was relevant and important or it wouldn't be there!

I agree, we are saying close to the same thing.
But you made two statements that are in conflict with what I said:
"The Camaro bodies at Fisher were sequentially built in 1967."
" ....the staging lines .... explains why the VIN's appear to be out of sequence compared to the body build up."

No, the bodies were not built sequentially by the body #. Fisher used a rotation # to built the cars. Cars could and did get pulled out of order for repairs. This rotation # is the # that is written on alot of original firewalls. I can provide more examples if that will help.

Chevrolet then used a different rotation # when the car hit the Chevrolet side. This is the # on the broadcast sheets.

Both rotation #'s had the same purpose - tracking the car and it's subassemblies.

The issue with this car being out of sequence is mostly due to 07C being produced for a very short time. Cars got mixed around on the Fisher side (mainly in the body shop), so 07B and 07C cars could be and were interspersed. It's not uncommon to see but it's much more prevalent here, presumably due to the end of the year.


Could you please detail exactly what you think is different in the 67 process than the 68/69 process? Seriously.

Still don't understand the suppression of free speech thing...

[Kurt S]

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(Please Agree or disagree)

8.The VIN# and the computer lock for CFA (with the specific option content) was partially assigned based upon down line parts availability.

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Disagree.
The VIN was assigned right as the body was received by Fisher.
If the parts were not available, the body wouldn't have been built.

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10 The order that the bodies were staged on the Chevrolet side was random prior to the assignment of the VIN and final assembly computer build lock.

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No, the VIN was assigned first and then the cars bodies went into the body bank. The six lanes of the body bank were organized by option (mainly AC, RS, hi-po, and regular). The body bank balanced the assembly line according to option content of the car. Certain stations take more time than others. You didn't want 2 rally sports, etc, in a row. Still true today.

Other than that, looks mostly correct.

[Chateau Slate 66]

It appears that this car possibly sold outside of eBay?

The ad has been pulled. Congrats! (hopefully)

[70 copo]

Congrats to the Seller and to the buyer!

Kurt,

I too could waste pages in reply to you. Not going to do that - I have far better things to do, as you are clearly in damage control mode now with back to back posts cluttering up a simple discussion. Proof of your claims or info to back it up all coming from a Research Site (that by policy) gathers but does not share information.

Again and simple: In '67 paper work was with the body at Fisher. (Photo Shows that) All '67 bodies had a Trim Tag installed early on that contained specific option content that was related downline to a final build order to which a VIN# was assigned on a "scrambled" order at final assembly.
("Scrambled" is your term not mine- although I gotta say I have to agree)


It is in the implementation of the process that you disagree with me, and that is fine with me - but it is awfully clear that my opinion although clearly supported with evidence (as I outlined above) and my simple act of disagreeing with you - is not acceptable to you at all.

On the freedom of speech thing it is pretty clear that you are obsessed with proving your point - so you keep placing more and more info here that still fails to support your position with the perception I am getting that you simply seek to attempt to intimidate with unsupported theory that leaves huge gaps in understanding to the avarage reader.

Transulation- thread has become a "yawner" now and the car also appears sold.

Obviously we are now both way off topic. I suggest giving this mess a rest as other people have things to sell You know my opinion.

It has not changed and will not change.

By now I think everyone knows who to find your website too.

[Steve Shauger]

This discussion is turning in to one of personal attacks. Although the information discussed has much merit and has allowed each reader to be fully informed, lets move on. I think we all have formed opinions and no information that has been presented will change anyones.

[Kim_Howie]

With the Gibb novas there is around 50 cars between each VIN# There is 4 different sets of body #s. But the thing I found out is some of the early body #s are on later VINed cars. I thought for a long time that the 4 body #s where related to the 4 colors of the cars. One car showed up that proved that wrong. 20 years of study these cars and still dont know how they were done?? AS the saying goes the more you know the less you know.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

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With the Gibb novas there is around 50 cars between each VIN# There is 4 different sets of body #s. But the thing I found out is some of the early body #s are on later VINed cars. I thought for a long time that the 4 body #s where related to the 4 colors of the cars. One car showed up that proved that wrong. 20 years of study these cars and still dont know how they were done?? AS the saying goes the more you know the less you know.

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Ditto on the Deuces! I came late to this party, interesting read.

[firstgenaddict]

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With the Gibb novas there is around 50 cars between each VIN# There is 4 different sets of body #s. But the thing I found out is some of the early body #s are on later VINed cars. I thought for a long time that the 4 body #s where related to the 4 colors of the cars. One car showed up that proved that wrong. 20 years of study these cars and still dont know how they were done?? AS the saying goes the more you know the less you know.

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Exactly Kim... a closed mind is an ignorant mind... none of us know everything and to go into these discussions thinking that we do know everything is ludicrous. There is more and more information uncovered every year and like you said... "the more I think I know... the more I realize I am just scratching the surface!

[Kurt S]

I post twice and I'm in damage control? You've post 16 times on this thread, I've only posted 6!
My last post went thru your list of points and says only two were wrong. I did that specifically cause you asked and as discussion topics.

If CRG didn't distribute info, we wouldn't have a site. We do a whole lot more sharing of info than some other sites.
What we won't distribute is individual car info. We promise that to people who share data with us - that is why we have 15,000+ datapoints and are able to publish the articles and info on our site. Sorry, we don't compromise our standards just cause you don't like it.

I still don't understand what part of what I'm saying you don't agree with. I am more than willing to post some data to support my position - I never said I wouldn't. But you've never directly responded to any of my points except the Firebird one. So I don't even know what needs more evidence. I think I clarified the Firebird part of it.

I get it. Have a civilized, data-driven discussion with you is supressing someone's freedom of speech, somewhere. OK, I don't get it.
And can you point me to that evidence that you posted?


If you can post a specific issue with what I've said, I'll try to post some data to back it up. Else it would appear that the light of data is scaring you away.

Congrats Max! Sorry that this got mixed up with your for sale post!

[Charley Lillard]

70copo . What I have derived from all of this is that you seem to have it in for the CRG. You seem to come into this thread baiting William by asking 50 questions and taunting for answers like a attorney at a trial. Supress free speech ? Damage control ? If you don't believe what I am saying about how you are coming across, ask someone you are sure is neutral from outside this forum. I personally don't think you are proving any points because of the argumentative way you are trying to make them. If anything it makes you harder to believe.