THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28

[Charley Lillard]

Of the run of 50 Gibb ZL1's Mine is body # 222001 which is the first one of 50 in sequence but it is car # 14. My car has a 02D trim tag but cars #1 and #2 were delivered in December. Really confusing.

[Kurt S]

69 is a little different. The body # is the confirmation number.
But still the same concept applies - the scheduler moved the orders around as needed. And a call from Estes caused the #1 and #2 cars to be moved forward in the schedule.

It is a confusing system from the outside. If you haven't worked in production, esp automotive, it can be hard to grasp. Once you understand it, then a lot of things start to fall into place.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
69 is a little different. The body # is the confirmation number.
But still the same concept applies - the scheduler moved the orders around as needed. And a call from Estes caused the #1 and #2 cars to be moved forward in the schedule.

It is a confusing system from the outside. If you haven't worked in production, esp automotive, it can be hard to grasp. Once you understand it, then a lot of things start to fall into place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kurt it is not at all confusing. Go back and re read each of my posts. Really read them please.


Now since there was "no firebird production at Norwood in 1968" you are playing dates. Do you really think GM is going to phase in production of a duifferent brand line COLD?? No they are going to change the tag to prepare for the change. The 1969 models were produced at Norwood in year 1968, as a 1969 models. What about this is not clear??

"Once you understand it, then a lot of things start to fall into place".


Yes I know I live pretty close to the retiree hall for the old Norwood UAW. When we speak of our exacting standards of "date and build" to these guys you get laughed at really quick. Been there done that.

In the end it is still your opinion. In the end the guys who built the cars in 1967 tell a different story.

Phil

[Unreal]

The youngest kid in the class is the one who was born last, regardless of when he was conceived. Conceived first (Fisher body tag) could have actually been born last (Chevrolet VIN)

[70 copo]

I agree if you are talking about a living thing. Not a Car, with VIN assignment managed the way it was, The earlier car could also make it to the end of the line first.

[Kurt S]

[ QUOTE ]
In 1968 Firebird production started at Norwood along with production at LOS and Lordstown. This change from a single line to a multiple GM brand line production method at Norwood caused the change in the data on the Fisher tag in 1968 on the Camaro - as Chevy was no longer the only customer for cars out of Fisher.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now since there was "no firebird production at Norwood in 1968" you are playing dates. Do you really think GM is going to phase in production of a duifferent brand line COLD?? No they are going to change the tag to prepare for the change. The 1969 models were produced at Norwood in year 1968, as a 1969 models. What about this is not clear??

[/ QUOTE ]
Phil,
"What is not clear?" Nothing, other that it's wrong. You were talking about 68 model year with the reference to the change to the trim tag and the start of production at LOS in your first post. Then you talk about 68 calendar year. But it doesn't matter.

Absolutely NO Firebirds were built at Norwood in 68 - calendar year or model year. Firebird was removed from Lordstown on 3/15/69 in prep of the stripping of the plant and the installation of the Vega tooling. (JohnZ was the person responsible for ripping out the tooling and installing the Vega tooling, btw. Some good stories there!) Firebird production restarted on 4/14/69, at NOR. This is documented from the General (hence why I know the exact dates). Can you show me *any* NOR Firebirds built before April 69??? Should be easy if you're right. If you want to save time, don't bother - they don't exist.

[ QUOTE ]
When we speak of our exacting standards of "date and build" to these guys you get laughed at really quick.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course. They were there to install a part. They would never look at a build date unless they are entering it for the POP info. Who (in the plant) cares what the date of an alternator is as long as it's the right part #?


I read what you wrote and a lot of it is wrong. Hence my post this morning about how the body #'s and VIN's were handled in the plant. You asked for data and I gave you concrete examples. Just like my post now.

Whether you choose to look at this info analytically and with an open mind, well....

Exactly what do you think was different in 67??
And again, "Just what data are you using to support your 'opinions'??"

[70 copo]

Kurt,

It has become clear that you are here on this site to supress free speech and push your CRG "agenda". I believe that you already have a really good web site where folks can go to express opinions and submit data to the CRG that gets snapped up into the D-base where it then gets used just like you are attempting to use it here.

Since you are no obsessed with the firebird issue Lets go there shall we?

13 years ago I interviewed several retired workers form both Fisher and Norwood who were employed there in 1967 to specifically determine 1967 production processes. These were the same guys that also recalled the pranks that were played on the new car buyer such as the notorious practice of placing a rattle can in the quarter panel. There were other stories as well.

These gentlemen were specific on the TT change in '68 to ready fisher for Firebird production, because this is what they were told by supervision at the time. Despite the fact that Fisher Norwood was ready - Market forces and firebird sales did not require the Production start for firebird there until mid '69.

I do not think it is productive to insult the retired workers. You have an opinion based on your 15,000 car d base of which you are not really clear on what % is 1967 exclusive.... That is your business, and apperently it is -as you are helping to run a website called the CRG. OK by me - but forcing your views down my gut here is not real polite. This is not the CRG.

In your previous post you stated:

"when they pulled the last Camaro, Oldsmobile, etc off the assembly line for the musuem, they always say that the last car doesn't always have the highest VIN. Because the staging lanes scramble the VIN order a little. The highest VIN will be the last car thru where the VIN's are assigned, but it probably won't be the last car down the line"


Your statement simply confirms what I have said previously on this topic and is what the Retiree's told me happened at the hole on the Chevrolet side.

We can keep chatting on this till the web dies or the moderators shut it down - you are not going to change my mind because what you and I believe is really not that far off the mark. I believe the Fisher Body unit number did matter in 1967 and thus the Trim Tag was relevent and you do not.

It is really that simple.

[Kurt S]

[ QUOTE ]
Kurt,

It has become clear that you are here on this site to supress free speech and push your CRG "agenda".

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, so supporting my arguments with facts somehow suppresses free speech? I'm not following.
I'm talking, you're talking, and we're not swearing.

And what exactly is the CRG agenda?
The CRG site says it's "Accurate, Objective, Useful Content".


[ QUOTE ]
Since you are no obsessed with the firebird issue Lets go there shall we?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not obsessed with it. It was the only thing that you responded to.

[ QUOTE ]
These gentlemen were specific on the TT change in '68 to ready fisher for Firebird production, because this is what they were told by supervision at the time. Despite the fact that Fisher Norwood was ready - Market forces and firebird sales did not require the Production start for firebird there until mid '69.

I do not think it is productive to insult the retired workers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting. So you're saying the tag change that occurred in 68 across all Chevrolet (and GM I believe) models and plants was due one new product coming to Norwood, one that didn't happen until mid-69? Thought you said it happened in 68? Never mind that Pontiac used the same style trim tag in 67.
I'd say it was a corporate wide change due to changing federal regulations (the conformance text on the tag).
Market forces weren't even a factor. It was a production issue - they needed to prep LOR for the Vega. And it took a month of work to prep NOR for the Firebird.
Oh, and just how did I insult anyone?
[ QUOTE ]
You have an opinion based on your 15,000 car d base of which you are not really clear on what % is 1967 exclusive....

[/ QUOTE ]
67's - 8,700 out of the 15,500 in the db.

[ QUOTE ]
Your statement simply confirms what I have said previously on this topic and is what the Retiree's told me happened at the hole on the Chevrolet side.

[/ QUOTE ]
That part is explained in the assembly article. And you stated it above too. It causes a little bit of variance, but only by a maximum of 50-100 VIN's (normally much less than that). Not enough to be evident or significant to any of us.
Almost noone in the plant looked at body #'s or VIN's anyway. If you go out in the plant and asked about a VIN or a body #, they would look at you funny. The rotation/sequence # is all that mattered.

[ QUOTE ]
We can keep chatting on this till the web dies or the moderators shut it down - you are not going to change my mind because what you and I believe is really not that far off the mark. I believe the Fisher Body unit number did matter in 1967 and thus the Trim Tag was relevent and you do not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The trim tag and all the info on it was relevant and important or it wouldn't be there!

I agree, we are saying close to the same thing.
But you made two statements that are in conflict with what I said:
"The Camaro bodies at Fisher were sequentially built in 1967."
" ....the staging lines .... explains why the VIN's appear to be out of sequence compared to the body build up."

No, the bodies were not built sequentially by the body #. Fisher used a rotation # to built the cars. Cars could and did get pulled out of order for repairs. This rotation # is the # that is written on alot of original firewalls. I can provide more examples if that will help.

Chevrolet then used a different rotation # when the car hit the Chevrolet side. This is the # on the broadcast sheets.

Both rotation #'s had the same purpose - tracking the car and it's subassemblies.

The issue with this car being out of sequence is mostly due to 07C being produced for a very short time. Cars got mixed around on the Fisher side (mainly in the body shop), so 07B and 07C cars could be and were interspersed. It's not uncommon to see but it's much more prevalent here, presumably due to the end of the year.


Could you please detail exactly what you think is different in the 67 process than the 68/69 process? Seriously.

Still don't understand the suppression of free speech thing...