Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please

[Rick H]

Everyone keeps blaming the Corvette guys when in reality it happens in ALL makes and models. Think of the Mopar guys who buy a hulk of a Hemi without drivetrain but it has the fender tag. In a few months, VIOLA, instance numbers matching car. So to point fingers at one group is ridiculous. That's not the reason I asked the question.

I can agree with the VIN stamped block and tranny but when it comes to other parts such as heads, exhaust manifolds, intakes, carbs, etc.. those without a VIN stamped into it, what does numbers matching mean?

There are some who believe that every part must be born with original to be considered numbers matching. I totally disagree.

I find the subject interesting and would like to hear more but please do not point fingers.

Thanks
Rick H.

[nuch_ss396]

If numbers matching means, or represents "born with...", why
do the CE blocks command so much attention and/or such high
prices. We've seen it over and over again.

I used to believe that numbers matching meant "born with" but
my feelings are different these days. When you find a nice
car to restore, but the original drivetrain is missing, you
are left with the proposition of assembling the correctly
dated, and if lucky - coded, components. Once done, you
have a numbers matching car. Just not the original components
the car came from the factory with.

Now the obvious observation: We all remember lots of
performance cars from our respective pasts and how many
of those cars survived with their original engines and/or
transmissions through the 1970's. Damn near every car I
remember had a transplanted block. Yet today, so many of
our cars are "numbers matching". I live in a glass house,
so I'm not throwing anything hard here.

I myself, in the quest to restore my grandfathers SS Camaro
back to original was forced to find numbers matching components,
but they are not, and can never be, the "born with" parts.

Is my car numbers matching? I believe it is. Is it original?
NO! How many actually are.

[69hurstSC]

this is not as complicated as it seems. #'s matching (IMO)is simply the drivetrain (engine, trans, rearend) that the particular vehicle rolled off the assembly line with. if you grenaded the motor and replaced it with a factory correct replacement block, you no longer have matching #'s. heads, water pumps, bumpers, mirrors, to me this is all accecptable to replace.
restamping = NON #'s matching
there are a few particular grey areas that must be discussed. lets take a 69 Yenko Novas for example. these cars were born as SS 396 cars and of course those were pulled for 427's. is this still a #'s matching car? another example would be the 69 Hurst Olds. they were converted to 455's. what is everyones opinion of a car that is still dealership new, but converted somehow before the 1st original buyer purchases that car?

[Keith Tedford]

Too many people play with words to make you assume things that probably are not true. The simple question is: "Is this engine original to the car?" Nothing vague about that. When money is involved, beware.

[LS6 RAT]

Rick,

Your "numbers matching" inquiry is tough to answer easily. My opinion is that there are only 3 items that can be considered numbers matching. This assumes that what we are "matching" is the VIN plate designation to the cylinder case, transmission case and frame/unibody that contains the VIN or a partial derivative of it.
Another argument can be said, about the Protect-0-plate metal card that contains the assembly stampings, and that the engine, transmission and rear axle can all be "matched" to the POP.
Beyond this, I would say all other components could be properly dated for the build of the vehicle, or contain the proper casting numbers associated with the inventory of parts used to build this specific vehicle and its options.

[Late BrakeU2]

Semantics and date coded parts aside,a car is only original once.CE blocks get about the same respect as cars without paperwork it seems.What about the member with the 67Z for sale who wanted some opinions on his motors originality? It's been pretty much validated on here by some of the foremost authorities as the one it came down the line with,and still there are a few conspiracy theorists.

[deuce-less]

perhaps some of us miss the best part of the hobby being caught up in the "numbers game"...

are we hesitant to even drive and enjoy our precious investment grade muscle cars??

what if we lose the original born with block because of an over-rev or missed shift?

i guess then we have to keep a non-numbers block in the car to drive and keep the born with block stored away for safe keeping...

or maybe a camaro we can flog without remorse when we feel the need and our original born with drive train car safe at home in its environmentally stable storage facility

there will be a day when we all wish we had spent a little more time with the pedal down and a little less time crawling under cars with a flash light checking numbers..


jmo

[BillD]

For years I have felt the statement "matching numbers" when used in an advertisement means pretty much NOTHING other than the vin number that appears on the block matches the vin number of the car. I have looked at cars advertised as "matching numbers" where the casting date of the block is months past the build date of the car, or the block has even been the wrong casting.

[Gregs396]

I am going to classify my understanding of a Matching numbers car, as one that does have the born with drivetrain.
If you have a replacement block or trans that don't have the VIN of the car that they are in, you don't have numbers that match. Some numbers will match, but not all of them. I guess that you could say that I have a car with partial matching numbers if you wanted to be 100% correct with your statement. Different VIN's on the car and block aren't matching no matter how you look at it. Yes, you can replace items such as manifolds, carbs, distributers with ones that are numbered and dated correctly, but those items don't have the VIN stamped on them, and there is no way to prove that they have been replaced to begin with. I agree that certain people have distorted the true meaning of matching numbers to accomidate what they are trying to sell, or what they have.

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps some of us miss the best part of the hobby being caught up in the "numbers game"...

are we hesitant to even drive and enjoy our precious investment grade muscle cars??

what if we lose the original born with block because of an over-rev or missed shift?

i guess then we have to keep a non-numbers block in the car to drive and keep the born with block stored away for safe keeping...

or maybe a camaro we can flog without remorse when we feel the need and our original born with drive train car safe at home in its environmentally stable storage facility

there will be a day when we all wish we had spent a little more time with the pedal down and a little less time crawling under cars with a flash light checking numbers..


jmo

[/ QUOTE ]

All valid points.Everyone is entitled to enjoy their car a they see fit- it's an elective decision.For some the joy is driving the car for what it was designed for,others it's the preservation and historical significance.Some of these high end cars are iconic,so yes perhaps the days of "enjoying them" in the dynamic sense has passed due to the risk.Obviously the attrition rate for motors was very high during the first years of ownership,because just about everyone drove theirs like the stole it.You can't have that missed up(or down) shift back any more than those docs that got thrown away during the Nixon administration.Once it's gone,that element of the cars history is permanent.

So yes,it's probably a good idea if you do have a high end collectible,like to drive your car in spirited fashion,and are lucky enough to still have the "born in driveline" it's makes both financial and common sense to put that motor aside in favor of one you're categorically less likely to lose sleep over if you pop it.I think to a degree some of these cars are the baton we carry as they change from owner to owner through time,couldn't even imagine how bad the feeling would risking damaging the car after so many years of prior discilpined ownership.