Trim Tag: none at all or repro?

[hep1966]

Is Verne the master of trim tags?

[Belair62]

No he's just honest...

[RamAirDave]

The tag may have been lost due to the engine fire incident, but maybe not by the fire itself. Maybe during the repairs under the hood, the cowl tag was removed by the body shop when repairing/repainting the firewall. Ive seen it happen.

Of course, this is just a suggestion of a possibility, nothing more. Regardless the reason, the tag is gone, so maybe it doesnt matter.

As far as the trim/VIN tag swap question asked earlier in this thread, someone else can take care of that one.

dave

[chavist93]

I definately dont want to use a cowl tag from another car as someone suggested. Like I said the car was absolutely all original and if I were to get a new tag it would reflect EXACTLY how the car came from the factory. I have documtational photos of the whole restoration process so this is not about trying to hide or make up something. The chassis and engine/trand/rear are all done and back together and the car body is in the paint shop right now being done back to nantucket blue.

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Is Verne the master of trim tags?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said "You want this one Verne?" it was only because it was late and I was going to bed.
Just being a bit of a smart alec. Besides, I knew Verne’s view would be simpatico.

Actually, Verne may not be the master of trim tags, but he is certainly a master of trim tags. On
page 3 of Colvin's Chevrolet by the Numbers for 1965-69 there is a note that states: "I would like
to especially thank Verne Frantz, Jr., President of the Jersey Late Greats, Inc., for his help in this
area." (speaking about trim tag decoding).

Why don't I like fake tags? Actually, I guess the question asked was "Why is the trim tag so
evil?" First, it is not the tag that is evil. It is the fake tag that is evil.

I understand this is still a hot topic and one with more that one point of view, but since the
question has been asked, I will answer it. Sorry for the length of this one.


1. The MAIN reason they are produced is to deceive. Now, before you get all defensive,
please note: I did NOT say the ONLY reason they are produced is to deceive. I have no
doubt someone can come up with a scenario with a legitimate sounding reason for a new
tag. If not for the possibility of deception why else would most folks be willing to pay
$250 for what is in effect a $20 part? An what about the legit tags that came off of legit
cars that were crushed. Why to they bring upwards of $700? For “novelty” purposes?
Puhleeze.

a. A couple of months a guy on ebay who goes by “ginadylan” was selling a car he had just
purchased the month before on ebay. He sells mostly Pontiac parts, and I am sure
provides lots of parts to folks who need them. However, he purchased a fairly rough X11
coded Camaro last August. About a month later he had the same car for sale, but with a
“reproduction trim tag” (I hate that phrase - but more on that later) with the same BDY
number, but now sporting an X22 code. Of course he misrepresented the car as an
original big block. Had one of his friends of relatives place some shill bids to bid the car
up. Before I even knew about the previous purchase I emailed him and asked him about
the tag because it looked fake in the pictures. Sure enough, he played it innocent. “Why
would you think the tag is fake?” he said, and acted as if he had no idea. Then I find out
about the other auction and check out a pic of the previous tag. That is fraud. The tag
forgers can say it is legal in all 50 states, but that is only referring to what you do with
your own car. If you alter it with the intent to deceive, it is fraud. He was pretty pissed
when I called him on it. I posted my findings and his emails on camaros.net. Said he was
going to sue me. So I gave him my name, business address and phone number.
Eventually, with the help of some other guys reporting this to ebay, they pulled the
auction.


b. Last spring, one of the guys on this board bought an X11 car that was cloned into a Z/28.
Nice car with DZ engine and BU rear. Correct tach and 4 leaf springs. I still don’t
understand the whole story on this one, but am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
The car was sold to another guy with an X33 trim tag. Supposedly that buyer knew the tag
had been swapped, although for sure the NEXT buyer did not know the tag was swapped
when he bought it and put if up for sale on ebay as a “numbers matching X33 Z/28". Now
this guy is really pissed and wanting to file a lawsuit. Bottom line is someone
misrepresented that car. The tag wasn’t swapped in the interest of originality, restoration,
or amusement or “novelty” purposes. It was swapped to make some money. Period.

c. Mark C. spots so many fake tags on ebay cars, I think he is getting carpal tunnel from
posting all the fakes. Funny how only big blocks, RS’s, Z/28's and the like show up with
fake tags. No one fakes just the color on their 6 cyl car. Why? They are putting a $250
“restoration” part on an otherwise plain jane and scoring several thousand for the effort
from unsuspecting folks. Of course, the funniest ones are on cars with a 6 cyl VIN, and the
guy is trying to represent it as a Z or big block.

2. Reproduction and restoration parts are supposed to put the car back close to its original
condition. Swapping a tag not only misses the point, it actually attempts to change part of
the car’s “DNA” into something it was not. Does that mean I am not allowed to make
modifications to my car? Not at all. Almost everyone made changes to these cars back
then. Why are the smog manifolds so scarce? Most of them were removed literally on day
2 in favor of some headers. Point is, we use the trim tag (at least on some models) so see
what the car is, and in some cases, to see how it was equipped, so we can restore it to that
condition. A fake trim tag isn’t a “reproduction” of anything. It is a forgery. As far as I
am concerned, you may as well be spending “reproduction” 20 dollar bills. The tag is
supposed to represent what the car is, not misrepresent what the car is.


3. Verne struck another chord when he stated: “I just have very strong feelings that so-called
"reproduction" cowl tags have an extremely negative effect in this hobby I love.” Suppose
a guy and his 15 year old son are new to the hobby and want to get started. He goes to a
local auction and purchases a 69 Z/28 project that must be legit because it has an X77 tag.
After lots of hours and lots of money, he finds out the tag is a fake. Sour taste? At the
very least. My next door neighbor did something quite similar, and it broke my heart to
have to tell him the Z/28 was a fake. I told him that I would be glad to go with him to
check out another car. Instead, he sold it ASAP and has given up on the hobby. Think
about it. Most of the very best friends I have are “car guys”. I have been over at friend’s
houses until the wee hours getting cars ready for a show. I have friends call me with weird
problems because I used to work as a mechanic back when these cars were new, and most
of the mechanics today can’t fix it if they can’t plug a scanner into it. Why do I help these
guys? Because of this “hobby I love.” Real car guys are the best. I just sold some
expensive original parts to a guy on this board. Told him to send me a personal check, and
I will probably ship before I even get it, let alone waiting for it to clear. Why? He is a real
car guy, and I don’t have to worry about getting burned. Think I would do that for
ginadylan (the guy on ebay who so brazenly swapped a tag and then acted innocent).
Unfortunately, my next door neighbor will never know what great guys real car guys are.

4. Alan Colvin feels so strongly about this that he won’t even publish the accessory codes for
fear his books would become the “Complete Guide on How to Build a Bogus Car.” He
goes on to state: “... until the hobby decides that this is wrong and learns to police itself, I
cannot in good faith publish the accessory codes.” Translation: there are too many
unscrupulous scum bags out there that would misuse the information.


My apologies to CHAVIST93. I did not intend to hijack your thread, but believe some of these
things needed to be said. I truly sympathize with your situation. However, you did ask for
opinions, so I gave it. I don’t mean to insinuate in any way that you were or are looking to do
something shady. Quite the contrary, if you were trying to deceive anyone, you certainly wouldn’t
start by posting your question on a public forum. I know some guys will point to your situation
and say this is exactly why we need a trim tag reproduction industry. Sorry, but for every
legitimate story out there, there are thousands that are sold just to help someone make a dishonest
buck.

I don’t know much about 67 Chevelles, but doesn’t the trim tag denote whether the car is an SS?
If the car has its original engine and trans, that’s pretty good evidence right there. It is a great
looking car. I remember tooling around with a friend in high school who had a similar one, same
color with a black vinyl top. Boy would that thing burn rubber! Being an SS, a fake tag would
come under more scrutiny. For instance, now everyone is questioning every tag, just because
there are so many fakes out there. You can’t help that it had no tag when you bought it.
However, if the car ever does change hands and a fake tag is discovered, the assumption is going
to be that the whole car was faked.

Again, just my opinion.

Lynn

[Verne_Frantz]

I would just like to point out that Lynn and I don't really know each other personally. I don't know that much about him, and he probably doesn't know that much about me. So, we're not "teaming up" against anyone. We have had no personal correspondence about these issues at all.
What I have learned though, from reading his prior posts, is that we seem to have some of the same views about the integrity of this hobby we both love. We are also both pointedly opinionated about our feelings regarding the sanctity of "real" cars...original cars.
Lynn has impressed me numerous times with his comments, but none more than this last one. (and NOT because he mentioned my name - that only embarrassed me).
I have a personal view that none of us are important at all. It's the cars that are important. We're only the temporary caretakers of them, if we're lucky. Will they be preserved properly for those in the future long after we're all gone? Will their history be saved?
I wish the vast majority of people in this wonderful hobby had Lynn's views. It's too bad there's so much money in it today. That changes things.

[Pantera]

[ QUOTE ]


For instance, now everyone is questioning every tag, just because
there are so many fakes out there. You can’t help that it had no tag when you bought it.
However, if the car ever does change hands and a fake tag is discovered, the assumption is going
to be that the whole car was faked.

Again, just my opinion.

Lynn

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts are with you and Vern. I would like to add to the above comment by raising a question.

What if one was faked and the car sold and some new 2nd owner down the line found out and went back in a lawsuit against each previous owner seeking money for the difference in value or his money back?

I realize there is a time limit like 3 or 5 years here in Okla. but would faking one and not discloseing something like this not leave a person a sitting duck for a lawsuit?

Pantera

[Leonard1]

I have to agree with Lynn and Verne in regards to "repo" trim tags. If a fake tag is discovered, it brings the whole car into question, regardless of what the intentions were.

[Pacecarjeff]

No one who orders a "replica" trim tag, (except maybe for this one guy).
To use the exact information on their existing tag.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON CHANGES SOMETHING.

Whether it is the interior color, or paint color, or to make it a Z/28. or a big Block. There is a reason for doing it and it is not "usually" an honest one.

I know of a few Corvette guys who have every piece of original documentation on their cars. However years ago some idiot wanted to change to leather interior, or go from green to red. Back then it was not a big deal. NOW the cars have phoney trim tags on them. Can't get Gold at Bloomington. They are perfect cars but the pedigree is always questioned.
These were not documented changes, and no one has the original tags anymore - those cars are screwed.

WHEN YOU CHANGE SOMETHING IT ALWAYS COMES BACK AT YOU.
MIGHT TAKE 20 YEARS. BUT SOMEONE IS GOING TO LOSE.

The only purpose for a "replica" POP or Trim tag is to change something.
No other purpose, Nada / none.

It always starts out honestly, (a guy wants to change his car to leather interior)
It's his car he can do whatever he wants - RIGHT.
Well 20 years ago, no one could tell the difference.
Now 2 or 3 or 4 owners later, that car has a "repro tag" - even though it is a real car, and hasn't been changed except for the tag and interior- Someone gets screwed.
Usually it is the guy who doesn't know better, or is new to the hobby.

You don't know what your body number was, so you have to pick one. Someone may already have that one in use - sounds like a problem.

It is a no win situation, except for the guy who buys it from you and then makes money on it.

Someone earlier had sugested a tag with no body number, or maybe XXX's - I thought that is a good idea - I thought that is what GM used to do if the tag was damaged

[Verne_Frantz]

As for the "X"s, that's correct. If incorrect characters were stamped on the tag, it was reloaded into the fixture and re-pressed with "X"s over the wrong info, and the correct info was added alongside. But I've only seen this on the Trim, Paint and ACC lines. Based on the earlier tags that I am familiar with, the tags went through two embossing tools. The first stamped the build date, year and style number, the plant designation and sequential body number. The other information was added later, after that particular body got picked from the "bank" and assigned to a car build order (a Broadcast). Sometimes the second stampings overlapped the first ones.

Verne