Who repro's the 70 GM Conforming door jam decal?

[hep1966]

[ QUOTE ]
It's obvious you are just arguing for the sake of argument. It's great practice for lawyers, but as we all know, the louder you argue, doesn't make you more right in your argument.

The metal cowl trim plate is essentially protected under common law fraud statutes: if you put another trim tag on your car and then give the buyer the impression that the car always had that particular trim/option combination, you have committed fraud.

The reproduction of the conformance decal for your own car, is legal.

End of lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

No argument here, hopefully just a friendly discussion.

Someone is missing or has a badly damaged cowl tag on a 1966 SS 396. They buy a real or reproduction cowl tag and put it on the car. They sell the car. Buyer finds out that the car is not factory correct. Who can be sued? The previous owner? The person who sold the real or reproduction cowl tag? The person who put the cowl tag on the car? If I remember correctly, according to your previous posts, all parties could be sued.

So someone gets a reproduction conforming sticker and puts it on their car. They sell the car and the buyer finds out that the sticker is bogus. Who gets sued? The previous owner, the maker of the sticker, or the guy who put it on the car?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's obvious you are just arguing for the sake of argument. It's great practice for lawyers, but as we all know, the louder you argue, doesn't make you more right in your argument.

The metal cowl trim plate is essentially protected under common law fraud statutes: if you put another trim tag on your car and then give the buyer the impression that the car always had that particular trim/option combination, you have committed fraud.

The reproduction of the conformance decal for your own car, is legal.

End of lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

No argument here, hopefully just a friendly discussion.

Someone is missing or has a badly damaged cowl tag on a 1966 SS 396. They buy a real or reproduction cowl tag and put it on the car. They sell the car. Buyer finds out that the car is not factory correct. Who can be sued? The previous owner? The person who sold the real or reproduction cowl tag? The person who put the cowl tag on the car? If I remember correctly, according to your previous posts, all parties could be sued.

So someone gets a reproduction conforming sticker and puts it on their car. They sell the car and the buyer finds out that the sticker is bogus. Who gets sued? The previous owner, the maker of the sticker, or the guy who put it on the car?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the cowl tag: anyone with knowledge of the false information that was put on that tag could be held liable if someone else (a buyer) relied upon that false information.

If you got a repro of the exact original damaged cowl tag and put it on, no one is liable because no damage has occurred.

If you put on a repro of your original conformance decal, no one is liable because no damage has occurred.

If you swapped the metal VIN tag onto another body and had a conformance decal made up to match that newly installed VIN tag (or even carefully moved the original decal to a new body), the making and placing of the decal on the car, in and of itself is not a crime, but it will be used as further evidence of the criminal act of VIN tampering.

[hep1966]

[ QUOTE ]
On the cowl tag: anyone with knowledge of the false information that was put on that tag could be held liable if someone else (a buyer) relied upon that false information.

If you got a repro of the exact original damaged cowl tag and put it on, no one is liable because no damage has occurred.

If you put on a repro of your original conformance decal, no one is liable because no damage has occurred.

If you swapped the metal VIN tag onto another body and had a conformance decal made up to match that newly installed VIN tag (or even carefully moved the original decal to a new body), the making and placing of the decal on the car, in and of itself is not a crime, but it will be used as further evidence of the criminal act of VIN tampering.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree.

[70 copo]

Some one please correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall Jim Osborne was arrested in an FBI raid in 1988 at his place of business.

The government's issues were:

1. The reproduction of decals that were not licensed by GM, and

2. The reproduction of the Blue Certification stickers.

I think they actually locked him up at first. Osborne agreed to quit selling the blue certification stickers and to give GM a cut on the rest of the decals and then he continued in business.

I think some case law since then has clairified the Government's position in these matters since - but what happened to Jim back then was Scary indeed.

Phil

[njsteve]

Yes, it was very scary back then too. GM and Chrysler used their legal muscle to push the issue and then settled for a cut of the profits from the sales if I recall correctly. The legal issues have been clarified since then. That is why the makers of these decals either sell them untyped or ask for some type of documentation to verify that you are the owner of the actual car.

[Belair62]

Found this at Chevytalk http://www.classictiger.com/vinopin.html

[Mr70]

Jim Osborn still sells the reproduction GM blue Door Vehicle certification label,that became mandatory,starting on the New 1970 sold Vehicles.
Part#DC-1318 for $10.50 w/clear overlay included.
http://www.osborn-reproduction.com/catal...184KEY%3APAR%3A

[PeteLeathersac]

Since it's a reproduced 'Vin-ed' item, I'd look at using one of these as similar to restamping a motor or trans. . In either case, the door w/ Vin or drivetrain part w/ Vin can be swapped while inadvertently moving the Vins. . Of course applying a repop decal is much easier to attempt and you can try and try again if you're unhappy with the result unlike if your retamp goes bad, but easier doesn't make things any better or more honest? . If they were aware, any 'Re-Vin-ed' item would have different opinions depending on what local or Federal agencies and their agents feel at the moment. . Also like I've said before, reproducing Vins of any kind could subject your vehicle to possible destruction of any tags by the feds and a State reissued Vin thus greatly diminishing the value of the vehicle. . So like restamping, do whatever you feel comfortable with but allow this to be open knowledge come sale time to the serious buyer or certifying the car as "thorougbread' or other similar type status. . And again, if selling the vehicle, don't just tell the buyer this info, put it in writing so when the car is resold, you have proof you were above board and it's easy to see who dropped the ball of honesty. . As always, personal opinions here and subject to change without notice, any similarity to persons living or dead is purely coincidental, call with charge card in hand, operators are standing by. ~ Pete

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Some one please correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall Jim Osborne was arrested in an FBI raid in 1988 at his place of business.

The government's issues were:

1. The reproduction of decals that were not licensed by GM, and

2. The reproduction of the Blue Certification stickers.

I think they actually locked him up at first. Osborne agreed to quit selling the blue certification stickers and to give GM a cut on the rest of the decals and then he continued in business.

I think some case law since then has clairified the Government's position in these matters since - but what happened to Jim back then was Scary indeed.

Phil

[/ QUOTE ]

Another thing I just recalled. (a rather important point actually) The "crimes" alleged were Federal copyright and trademark infringement/counterfeit labeling and not VIN-related crimes. Once the licensing agreements were signed, the case pretty much went away.

[Stuart Adams]

Is it beer time yet, its got to be 5:00 PM somewhere.