1969 Z/28 trim tag

[70Z]

By no means does lack of paperwork make a car worthless. I never said that or meant to imply such. What I said was, in my opinion, in this day and age, an undocumented car does not deserve a premium price. That is far different than saying a car is worthless. Certainly in my case that is a fact...ie, I was unwilling to pay what would be consider a "fair" price today for a strong #2 '69 Z w/o docs because I'm afraid of what lies in store for these cars.

The better question to ask I suppose is..Not does your car have less value than your friends, but whether or not your car has less value than a similar Z with paper work? And if so, how much less?

And, as for Ed Cuneen, you were actually making my point not yours with that example. The reason people go to Ed is to "prove" thier car is real because paper from Ed is respected to a degree that gives it authenticity to a car lacking GM paperwork. The reason they do this is becuase it makes their car more valuable after Ed gives his seal of approval.

In any event, I certainly never meant to dis anyones car by my statement.

[MosportGreen66]

Your second question is easily answered... The other Z28 with paperwork is going to worth more in a fair market value verses my no-docs car.

Ed Cuneen does not authenticate these cars to grant them their appreciated values. He documents rare cars to authenticate their originality. If they do not have paperwork, then he must look for original clues in the car, his knowledge and "known" facts to authenticate them.

and no harm done, I just think your question left room for debate...

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
By no means does lack of paperwork make a car worthless. I never said that or meant to imply such. What I said was, in my opinion, in this day and age, an undocumented car does not deserve a premium price. That is far different than saying a car is worthless. Certainly in my case that is a fact...ie, I was unwilling to pay what would be consider a "fair" price today for a strong #2 '69 Z w/o docs because I'm afraid of what lies in store for these cars.

The better question to ask I suppose is..Not does your car have less value than your friends, but whether or not your car has less value than a similar Z with paper work? And if so, how much less?

And, as for Ed Cuneen, you were actually making my point not yours with that example. The reason people go to Ed is to "prove" thier car is real because paper from Ed is respected to a degree that gives it authenticity to a car lacking GM paperwork. The reason they do this is because it makes their car more valuable after Ed gives his seal of approval.

In any event, I certainly never meant to dis anyones car by my statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess the hat trick(POP,Build sheet,window sticker)of documentation on a born in driveline 69Z would increase it's value by 35-40% over one without,regardless of condition,less if it's limited to just the POP,or W/S.

When was the last time you saw a 69Z with that level of paper? most of the camaro owners back then were young,and paperwork went in the trash along with their stock exhausts,mainfolds,and smog equipment.

I bought my 69 Cortez/black Z from the original owner of 35 years-he was eighteen,had just returned from his tour,bought it with his discharge pay,the window sticker lasted two hours as he went home and scratched it off with his fingernails so he could cruise the blvd that night and not look like a dork-quick end to one piece of it's history.This was the case with most of these cars-the significance of these items didn't dawn on most till waay too late,who knew? You tend to see substantial docs with the big block cars-they were almost twice as much as entry level offerings and in most cases were purchased by (dare I say it) much older thrity sumpin cats who could afford the note AND knew the value of keeping records of their investment.

I took along hard look at your car while it was on auction,and took a pass because,in part,it did not have a build sheet. Afterwards I rationalized it didn't really matter as the car had won numerous accolades and was well respected in the community.I think it is one of,if not the nicest example of a second gen I have seen,(my buddy took copies of the engine bay to use as a blueprint when he restores his)and wish it was in my garage .I think your car set the tone for the future of valuations for 70Z's of your cars caliber,and it will prove to be a great investment paperwork or not as it has the original drivetrain

[Mark_C]

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess the hat trick(POP,Build sheet,window sticker)of documentation on a born in driveline 69Z would increase it's value by 35-40% over one without,regardless of condition,less if it's limited to just the POP,or W/S.

[/ QUOTE ]

In addition to the fake trim tags, each of these are being faked as well. The POPs are pretty good, and depending on who does the build sheet and window sticker they range from laughable to almost indistiguisable from real. I agree that when you have two cars in equal condition the one with "real" paperwork will bring a premium. Don't know if 40 percent is a real number or not (thats 12,000 on what would otherwise be a 30K Z28) I'd think no more than 20 percent but that my opinion. But you better be sure what your looking at and know how to tell real from repro.

[MosportGreen66]

70Z.... This just goes to show you great '69 Z28 will be paid a premium for... I would not mind owning Sam's, Darren's or Mr. T's Z28... No docs just means no docs... not much else.

[70Z]

Thanks for the kind words about my car. I hope your right about the value but in this case it doesn't really matter and I suppose that adds a whole other angle to this subject. You see, this car is an exact copy of the one I had as an 18 year old kid...my first "real" car.

But, unlike alot of you, I'm not a "car guy". I'm just a guy who owned a 70z as a kid who is in a position in life to have a few toys. And while I would never buy a car as an investment, per se, I am concerned about spending 50K on something that may only be worth 30K 2 years from now. Unlikely you say? Perhaps, but I sure don't feel I'm in the position to spot a fake like some of you might. So I need more reassurance. So, to that degree I guess all this paperwork, is it real is it fake crap ony matters to the next guy. In other words, if I'm not going to sell the car who cares? If I might sell it then thats another story. At least to me. I hope that makes sense.

It also doesn't help that there is a guy right here in town whose whole business model is based on building fake 69 ss/z28 Camaros. I've spoken to him and while he seems like a decent person he was quite clear that he could build me a car that was as "real" as I wanted. Whats really scary( at least to me) is he's building 10-12 cars at a time and has a years waiting list!

Hopefully were all on the same page now. I sure never meant to ruffle anyones feathers over this so consider my comments just simply the point of view from someone far less knowledgable than the average person on this board. Hopefully we would agree that this market needs people like me as well.