1970 Ls6 Convertible

[mmcporter]

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..Way too much specualtion followed by over priced goods, followed by a self correction= lots of $$ lost....

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<font color="blue"> Greg, was there really money lost over the long term? No, only for a brief period if we are talking about muscelcars. LS6s, Z/28s, etc lost some ground in the early 90's, then "corrected", but are now higher than they were during the peak. Ferraris like the F40 peaked and tanked and have never recovered, but musclecars have gained overall since the last boom. </font>

Morris,

I think it is more of an issue because the current boom in musclecars followed the largest boom in traditional investments. The same guys paying 150k for a Yenko Camaro are the same guys 5 years ago dumping tons of money in the market..That tanked and hasn't fully recovered so they are looking for a windfall elsewhere..If the accounting scandals of 2 years ago and other events that surpressed the market wouldn't have happened, we probably would have already seen the turn down already IMO..At what point is it too much,...keep in mind that the people willing to pay 275k for a Chevelle are the same people here..Put these cars onto the open market via auction or outside of a website devoted to it and see what it does..That in my opinion is a truer sense of "market value" If these cars (or really any car) were great investments they would be easily specualted all the time..look historically and what do you see..The market crashes in 1987..musclecar and other "commodites" go up..the market recovers and prices fall..the market tanks and prices on muslcecars go up...when the market rallies and people realize the only ones paying 275k for certain cars are their buddies then they will bail out as well..the musclecar hobby benefited from baby boomers that grew up with them and the prices reflect disposable income..If you want to see if they are true investments wait til the guys in my generation (30's..) are willing to pay 250k for one..I highly doubt we will as a whole..The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc.. It becomes a domino effect when one gets out they all will..the Ferrari F40 was way over specualted as most modern "high speed low drag" cars are..The market prices now reflect the over specualtion..Keep in mind at that time it was still a brand new car...that was governed by all new car laws..they depreciate..

[Jeff H]

Greg, I don't think the limited production performance car market will tank like it did before. This time around a lot of people realized how limited the number of surviving cars is and if you want one, you better grab one. There are only so many ZL1's to choose from, same for JL8's, L89's, LS6 convertibles, Yenko's, etc. And if all the documented cars' owners don't want to sell, then the undocumented #'s matching cars will climb to the same price level because that's all you have to choose from. Plain old Z28's and SS350 cars may drop back down as well as SS396 Chevelles because the supply is bigger than the demand.

[KLONECO]

OUCH...........THESE WISDOM TEETH!!!!!!!!!!!

[Born30YrsLate]

[ QUOTE ]
The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc..

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In my opinion, as myself not being from the baby boomer group, is that these classic muscle cars...supercars in particular are pieces of American art themselves from a time in modern America's history were it seemed (at least from my perspective) these cars were the definition of the time just like different sorts of art work have been (paintings, sculptures, pottery, architecture...etc) defined other periods of history.......the generation that was young (young, being a relative term ) when Duesenbergs were new are not the majority of the ones buying them these days (if my math is correct)....just my humble opinion and 1.5 cents worth from one of the "young guys".....PARTY ON!

[KLONECO]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!not that the hobby has changed!.....just the interested parties!!! all the people for years have wanted the "SS RS " wheels,"tunnel rams, sold parts....... added certain features, eliminated "BADGES" emblems etc......whatever the case may be.........IF IT IS A # 'S THING GOOD! 1 ...! THERE IT SHALL BE..........2 HOBBY!!!!!.......there it shall be!!!!!! 3 ground up ........leftover parts! personnal enjoyment that to shall be!1 but............as they say "don't crush em" restore 'em!!!!!!.........why must a boy,girl,woman, or man be condemmed for enjoying this "hobby"?????????????????????? whatever the car may be! (except foreign!) lol !!! just trying to keep this hobby together!!!!! Many posts have been refered to&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; TEAM CHEVELLE.......or a camaro club! or some other aspect...........shelby ,etc. GTO ,MUSTANG, PONTIAC! as long as some heritage is preserved!!!! who cares! those who own know! those who cherish know!those who care understand!............. what is the harm in understanding the differance??????? ENJOY EM .........!! ....every cruise night..SCR show ...............or in in the front of your home!!!!!! HECK IN YOUR MIND( dreams)!!!!!! is it not a bond of some sort?....a story to be told????????? why must it seem inferior? I would hate to see how many COPO cars are hidden in fake dresses!!!!!!!!!

[mmcporter]

[ QUOTE ]
Morris,

I think it is more of an issue because the current boom in musclecars followed the largest boom in traditional investments. The same guys paying 150k for a Yenko Camaro are the same guys 5 years ago dumping tons of money in the market..That tanked and hasn't fully recovered so they are looking for a windfall elsewhere..If the accounting scandals of 2 years ago and other events that surpressed the market wouldn't have happened, we probably would have already seen the turn down already IMO..At what point is it too much,...keep in mind that the people willing to pay 275k for a Chevelle are the same people here..Put these cars onto the open market via auction or outside of a website devoted to it and see what it does..That in my opinion is a truer sense of "market value" If these cars (or really any car) were great investments they would be easily specualted all the time..look historically and what do you see..The market crashes in 1987..musclecar and other "commodites" go up..the market recovers and prices fall..the market tanks and prices on muslcecars go up...when the market rallies and people realize the only ones paying 275k for certain cars are their buddies then they will bail out as well..the musclecar hobby benefited from baby boomers that grew up with them and the prices reflect disposable income..If you want to see if they are true investments wait til the guys in my generation (30's..) are willing to pay 250k for one..I highly doubt we will as a whole..The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc.. It becomes a domino effect when one gets out they all will..the Ferrari F40 was way over specualted as most modern "high speed low drag" cars are..The market prices now reflect the over specualtion..Keep in mind at that time it was still a brand new car...that was governed by all new car laws..they depreciate..

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<font color="blue"> I relate musclecars to Will Rogers' quote about real estate: "They aint making any no more." </font>

Good point Morris,

However you really can't equate something out of production, with it remaining to be a tried and true investment. In my opinion the main reason that the cars "resurged" in 2001 or so, was largely a result of a sluggish economy,the internet (websites like this..), having an investment that is tangible, and the baby boomers. When these guys get too old or start dying off (they are in their mid 40's at best)the cars will drop in value, as it will be hard for the "younger" generations (of which I'm an example) to justify paying what the "perceived" value will be. Look at pre-war Fords, model "A" and "T" cars, etc..As the generation that appreciates the respective cars dies off...the prices drop and stay there as the cars were massed produced, are American (as opposed to European (perceived inferior quality)), and are not accepted by non-enthusiast as being worth the money.

When one argues that they are "works of art," one must keep in mind that these cars were mass produced, are currently largely over restored (how many "true" concourse frame offs have you seen lately...drips, runs, no paint or clear on natural metal, etc.). Since they were essentially mass transportation, available to anyone (Yenkos, BM, etc. included)it is going to be hard to justify to future generations future value. Look at "tradtional" investments outside of stocks, bonds, real estate, etc.. Art was traditionally done one off or commissioned for royalty, jewerly same (Faberge...), real estate..well that is a no brainer....can't always add more..a finite number..These are investments that im my opinion will fluctuate to soem degree, but will always be worth money to the masses. Musclecars are a largley American icon of the "baby boomer " generation..when they go so does the perceived value..sure they will still be worth money as theey aren't making them any longer and they have intrinsic value, but the prices will correct to what is considered a more rational level.

These cars are great fun and while they are currently bringing large sums of money do we really think they always will..For the most part people here thumb their noses at younger car enthusiast (the "ricer generation..") Yet aren't they the ones that in 20 years will be in a postion to have the disposable income to buy a car to drive only on weekends (if at all..)??? Who do you guys think you are going to sell your 300k ZL1's and 150K Yenko Camaros and 275k Chevelles to?? Each other.??? When you guys want to cash out, so will the other people specualting on these cars..Therefore they will need to go to a future generation..What do they think about paying 275k for a car that doesn't get driven, has no A/C, needs a gorilla to push in the clutch, handles and rides like a buckboard, etc...Now I'm not knocking the cars (or anyone here for that matter), as obiviously I own them too..I just am not paying obscene amounts of money hoping they hold their value, and trying to justify that they will always be safe investments...

[Stuart Adams]

At this point will someone pour me a drink!!!

[Belair62]

Greg...don't worry..the kids can buy an LS 6 to drive and keep the ZL1 in the garage !!! (you knew that was coming)