rebodied with out salvage a title

[bbg]

Darn hvychev, after a comment like that you make it awfully hard to say anymore. Looks like the only way to go from there is down. Let's look at some questions I would have regarding the blazer accident. It is without a doubt a terrible tragedy that young lady lost her life. I do not want to take away from that. Some things that I would want to know about it though are:

1. Was this gentlemen a certified body technician?
2. Did he also perform any mechanical work needed, and if
so was he cerified in that field also?
3. If he had someone else do any mechanical work were they
certified?
4. In our state when transferring a title on any vehicle a
damage disclosure statement has to be filled out. Was
this done and if so was it accurate?
5. At some point between the length of time it took to
repair the vehicle and the 6 months of ownership past
did the vehicle not come up for a state safety inspection
and if so was the suspension not checked then?
6. It was stated that the owners thought there was something
wrong with the vehicle. Why did they not have it checked?
7. It was stated that the young lady was speeding at the
time of the accident. Was this not also a cause?
8. After another serious accident with apparently a lot of
vehicle damage how was it concluded that the repairs
were at fault? Was it that apparent that there was
pre-existing damage?

Of course in all of this we do not have access to the actual facts, so any and all conclusions we come to would be speculation at best. It would be my guess though that the big issue based on what we were told is the lack of disclosure and the lack of verifiable certification to make the repairs needed. When a lawyer asks you for yourbackground and you have no suspension training and all you can say is "I have fixed a bunch of them." He then gets to say something smart like "Well, you've been awfully lucky up until now haven't you? Just like the one gentlemen previously stated you need to be very careful if you are going to do this kind of work, and have the proper training and skills to do the job.

As to this new camaro unibody, what I just heard said was pedigree. If someone used it to repair a 307 automatic would anyone care? If someone gave you one of those super camaros on "cars in barns" and you could only repair it with a rebody what would you do? If you did rebody it would you look for a good clean original GM camaro or choose a nice new unibody? I am just asking Questions of you and it would be great if some of you would post not what is expected or accepted but your true feelings. Good or bad. Another gentlemen earlier in this post asked if it was really that hard to tell the truth. Let's see. My feelings on the unibody as a part though is that first we need to see if it is as strong as the original and all components fit properly, and that is of course when someone uses one and admits it. Seems to me though it would be hard to use to make a passable fake. All the other repop parts have little deviations from original GM and I am sure the real experts here, which by the way I am not one, could easily point out the things that make it obvious this is not an original part. Titleing and data transfer issues aside as discussed, if safety in our cars is truly an issue isn't there some shells that need way too much metal repair to really be that safe? Would you truly throw away that Zl1, Yenko, COPO, etc. if it were? I think this fellow is apparently driving one of those rebody cars, as the rear end seems to have fallen off.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Ed, well said, I'm tending to agree with you as well.

[Belair62]

And isn't this the way all posts should go ! Perfect.Makes sense and no one is bleeding...it's just like the old days ! THAT'S how it should stay....great info.

[Kim_Howie]

Here's one to think about. The factory worker that put those cars together new Were mostly general laborers, NOT cert. mechanics like we have today. Rebulding a 60's car is totally diferent than a wrecked new one of today!

[Norm reynolds]

Ed you just made the same point I made in the beginning
(In our state when transferring a title on any vehicle a
damage disclosure statement has to be filled out. Was
this done and if so was it accurate?)
I start out stated that in Pa when a car has a lot of work to the extent to like this blazer that seem to be close to benign totaled or re-bodied (but I do not know what the real story is)
You must disclose the repairs and have salvage or re- constructed title is that not the same thing?? By having a salvage title tell s who ever buys the car was damage and was repaired
I just got back from a friends shop that does restorations and showed him this thread after reading this Bill said he stop clipping cars five years ago I asked why and he said two words law suites he went on that just because you are certified and have a state licensed and have insurance does not keep a smart attorney taking every thing you own away from you. He reminded me of a friend that had a gas station and had a good business but lost it all one night a guy pull in with a nail in his tire
A 18 old kid that was working pumping gas pull the nail and plugged it The guy leaves the gas station go s to a bar. Four hours later he leaves the bar wasted
. Drives a few blocks blows a red light and slams in to another car broadside killing a little girl The guy had no drivers licensed no insurance did not own a home he had nothing So a smart attorney start investigating the car and finds the tire with a plug in it
To make a long story short this attorney convinces a jury that the plug in the tire could make the car not handle right and that caused the accident
Now did that plug in that tire cause the accident??? Heck no. The gas station owner had insurance but this ended up a multimillion-dollar law suite and it wiped him out
Bill said if a car that he worked on got in an accident and it had nothing to do with what he did it would not stop a good attorney from going after him and all his certifications will not help him
Ed I sorry that I do not agree with you about re-body or clipping May be in Nc things are a little different but up here every body is lawsuit happy
You asked if I had ZL-1 , yenko or what ever and it need to be re-bodied would I throw it away .Ed I did this with a numbers matching 1967 GTX I had YES I would throw it away. Sorry I know no body will agree with me but that is how I feel
Just to let you know I do have a state safety and emission license and ASE master tech

[bbg]

I like for things to be civil too. I am really enjoying this sight. Thanks for letting me play. Norm, I think you actually answered you own question. The problem seems to me to be that folks where you live are sue happy, just as you say. Is plugging a tire illegal in your state? We plug tires here in NC too. I do respect your opinion regarding the clipping of cars, however as a mechanic, do you no longer change U joints because the driveshaft may fall out? No longer do brake jobs because the booster may leak and cause the brakes to fail? No longer replace bulbs because it may go out and not illuminate as a brake light or turn signal and cause an accident? How about your body shop friend. Does he no longer replace windshields because the glass may blow out? Certified technicians perform chores everyday that require special skills and training to do. Some times they make mistakes. We are human, and that is why we do carry liability insurance. Agree with them or not some tasks are performed that can have drastic consequences everyday, but due to economics or the needs of the people they are still done. Did you know that when the Saint Louis arch was built the government estimated that 9 men would die in it's construction? Is a arch really worth the lives of 9 men? But it was built anyway, and thankfully no one died during the construction. I still stand by my opinion also. Clipping if done by trained professionals is a safe and acceptable method of repair. Trained technicians work on airplanes, build bridges, erect tall buildings everyday. I wouldn't want a bagboy working on the airplane I was going to ride in, The cook at McDonald's to build my skyscraper, and hopefully for no plumbers to moonlight as McDonald's cooks either. You need the right folks with the right training in the right jobs, and things get done and done well. As to your friend not clipping cars I think it has more to do with economics than anything else. Anyone who does body work knows that you can make a lot more money doing parking lot scrapes and fender benders than large projects and vehicles with particularly heavy damage. Why would you want to get bogged down on a large project that is going to be much more aggrevating to do and less financially rewarding when it is complete? Same way with the rebuilders you say went out of business. I think it has more to do with economics. Since cars are so much more expensive and it takes a lot more damage to total them, it is hard to justify the labor and material investment considering the return when the damage is so great and the air bags are blown out. I am not saying they are not repairable, just that it is not financially viable to do so. The only reason I got involved with this topic anyway was in defense of the gentlemen who is clipping his car. I still say he will have a safer and much more satisfying repair if he clips it than if it were built piece mill. If a welder cannot weld 2 windshield posts, 2 rockers, and a floor pan he doesn't need to be welding, let alone doing all the welding that would be required to do it a piece at a time. Also as to the fellow that is putting the floor and cowl in his car, they did basically the same thing to a 65 Shelby on Dream Car Garage and it turned out really nice, neccesary because in it's younger days it had been raced and wrecked. After it was fixed he ran the daylights out of it. Must have a good welder. Norm, I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine, even though we do disagree. Our opinions are just that, opinions. I am sure there are folks on both sides of the fence. If you don't want to clip cars, then just don't do it. Personally I think if it were that bad of a thing it would be illegal just as making trailers from mobile home axles and tires, and 2 piece truck rims have become. Bottom line, just fix your car however you feel comfortable with, and be up front about it when you decide to sell. They all have some kind of warts you know.

[bbg]

I went back and read the original post and I think in all of this we have still missed one point. If the unibody on a camaro was really that bad and say it was a COPO, etc. and did indeed need to be totally replaced, how would you really know? If there were people who were familiar with the car they may tell. The people doing the work may tell. The owner may tell. What if no one tells? If you were using a good clean unibody and welded up the vin stampings which are normally hid from view anyway so that the acid test would not show them, and then you restamped them with the needed data, how could anyone really tell? An ethical issue, yes. But how could you tell? Surely with a little work the data plate could be put back on till you couldn't tell. When it was complete would it not just look like a fresh frame off resto? Does it really matter that much? If it started out as a fake, sure it is a fake. If it started out real, is it still real or is it now a fake, or is it a repair? And even as to the clip we have discussed, couldn't you just put in new rockers and a floor pan and no one would know because now the evidence of the cut is gone? Everyone seems to be perfectly content with installing a zillion new panels. It was all that rust you know. Why make a big deal out of the clip if it is OK to do new inner and outer front fenders, radiator support, hood, quarters, inner quarters, rockers, floor pan, trunk floor, tail panel, trunk lid, Isn't this pretty well rebodying the car? Yet with this avenue I hear no one complain. It is just better now because it has all this fresh new sheet metal. Do we really have our own opinion on this or are we just following the status quo? This is the way it has always been so that is the way it is. Opinions?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
"I went back and read the original post and I think in all of this we have still missed one point. If the unibody on a camaro was really that bad and say it was a COPO, etc. and did indeed need to be totally replaced, how would you really know? If there were people who were familiar with the car they may tell. The people doing the work may tell. The owner may tell. What if no one tells? "


Well the real point may not relate to the ethics of it but rather to the fact that it is illegal and a major felony to remove the VIN from one car to attach it another. Just replacing panels or a roof, or a trunk floor or bent frame rails is considered repairing in the eyes of Uncle Sam and the Federal Criminal Code. Whether it is for altruistic reasons: saving a rare car, or for selfish reasons: to scam the big $$$ out of someone, the perpetrator still is risking a lot: jail time if he doesn't have money and big lawsuits if he does. -NJSteve

[Norm reynolds]

Ed I am glad that we can agree to disagree I was not coming out here to put you down or pick a fright with you That is no my stile In Philly when it stops snowing by god you better get out and shovel your side walk with in a hour Because we have people going around and when they see a un-shovel walk way they go to the police and make out a report that they fell on your walk way the police go s out and sees that your side walk is not cleaned up and then they will then fine you Then you hear from an attorney that you are being sued. Now the kicker is the person that is suing you never fell on your sidewalk they make shore that no one is around so it s just their word for it Just look at what happen to McDonalds when some one sued because their coffee was to hot Today we live in a world that is full of nut cases I guess that what Ian saying in today’s society our have to be reel careful My wish would be to turn the clock back to 1960 to a more simpler time