70 Judge RAIV and V continuation

[Jeff H]

I wouldn't call it case closed until someone can show proof that the car arrived at Knafel before the engine was actually built. Does the PHS documentation show when the car was shipped to the dealer or when the car arrived at the dealer? Or can someone produce an NICB report showing the date Knafel got the car? That seems to be the next logical step in proving or disproving.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

This is all I have, and it probably has nothing to do with time spent in engineering.

Jim M would probably be the next hope for documentation. Supposedly all of Knafel's records are destroyed.

[L67WT1]

Why would you bother this man again his quote below is from a previous post. If this car was real I believe he would be one of the first to talk it up.

"Guys Pontiac "never" built a Ram Air V GTO at the factory!!!"

Jim Mattison
Pontiac Historic Services


The RA V horse is starting to look like road kill it has been beatin so badly.

[Steve_Hoog]

Because Jim was kind enough to call me during this debate, we worked things out between us. I apologized to him in person and publicly. And he stated, he would do what he could to help in the matter.

Any other questions?

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you bother this man again his quote below is from a previous post. If this car was real I believe he would be one of the first to talk it up.

"Guys Pontiac "never" built a Ram Air V GTO at the factory!!!"

Jim Mattison
Pontiac Historic Services


The RA V horse is starting to look like road kill it has been beatin so badly.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you can look at it that way. According to Chevrolet records, they never built a 68 Z28 convertible either. And we know that car went to Engineering to have the crossram and rear disc brakes put on. I think the research that has been done regarding this GTO has been very informative. Even if it can be proven that this car arrived at Knafel with a RA IV engine, then what's the story behind the RA V engine that is in the car now? It has the correct engine code and production stampings. Were they stamped after the fact? We'll probably never really know for sure, but why call it a dead issue when there are still questions worth finding answers to.

[L67WT1]

Jeff I agree that it would be cool to find out how the RA V got in that Judge and if it in fact had some race history like the Tin Indian, but I think that being installed at the factory or engineering is becoming a beatin horse issue. Unlike the 68 Z-28 Covert which had documentation to support that it is the real deal the supposed RA V car in question does not.

I like all musclecars but have been a Pontiac person for a long time. Pontiac guys always love to talk about the RA V as the Hemi or Chevy Rat beater. Although it pains me to write this Chevrolet was always and is GM's racing flagship and when MacDonald took over at Pontiac a lot of programs were stopped. Look at Pontiac today they pulled out of NASCAR. With Toyota coming into the sport you can bet dollars to donuts that all the Racing program money that was earmarked for Pontiac will be given to Chevrolet. ( I know that's a little off topic)to kick Toyotas butt.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Does the PHS documentation show when the car was shipped to the dealer or when the car arrived at the dealer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at the attachment in the reply that Steve posted about this question. The document clearly shows a ìDATE SHIPPEDî of ì11-06-69î It also shows a ìDATE OF NOTEî of ì11-19(?)-69 and a date of ì11-30-69î as ìINTEREST FROMî.
Think about it Steve. You work at a car dealership. Do you really think that the owner of a dealership is going to pay INTEREST for several months on a car that they have not even taken delivery of? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

[Steve_Hoog]

My families dealership never had a car go to engineering that I'm aware of, so I wouldn't have anything to look back on in our files to verify that either way.

Date shipped, could be the date it went to engineering, and interest from could be when it left engineering.

Rita your doing a great job, we just need some way to verify.

We have a man that will probably be making a post some time today that will probably establish your theroy on the date code correlation with the production number. He also thinks all of them started in a 6. If your theroy is correct, all we have to do is find the date it left engineering. It will either prove it didn't happen, or leave the door open.

I'm working on the your date code theory, you think you can find out if the dates on the invioce actually reflect engineering?

[L67WT1]

First of all regarding the date code theory. Pontiac did make some Ram Air V blocks in 69.They were in fact developed for Trans Am racing (303CID) and strip tested in a 69 GTO (400 cid) first. Are you trying to say that if this motor pre-dates the car that it is the real deal. Well I don't believe that. It just means someone purchased a date coded 69 block.

The block in the artcle Mrs Billybobcat attached was date coded 70. The serial production number you are trying to validate is later in the sequence and should have a later date code. If anyone knows RA V's the Shultzes do they have a lot of documentation and a car that is documented.

A 69 car with documentation but a 70 car without, why do you think someone would not document that 70 car? It's only a year later. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm!

[Mr70]

WOW...MrsBillyBobcat
If you were MsBillyBobcat...I'd be calling on you! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Good investigative work here people,Keep it coming.