70 Judge RAIV and V continuation

[Steve_Hoog]

Put aside all the previous debate of whether it came in a car or over the counter, my question is now "what is a production code doing in a RAV block?"

If we assume for the discussion that it is an untampered GM stamp, then why is it there?

It was suggested to me today during a phone conversation that the crate engines may have had a different holley carb and accordingly stamped in the crate as such. We are now waiting on verification on that theory from the owner of one of the motors.

[JLP]

On one of the pictures I have of a RA V (Rodder and Super Stock )it shows a smog pump and all its accessories on the engine. It is setting beside another engine with all the smog accessories. Pictures show several engines.

Apparently Pontiac was trying to get it certified otherwise why put it on the engine. If they were trying to get it certified then it would make sense to put a code on the engine for future reference. The WY code shows here http://www.wallaceracing.com/cgi-bin/engine3.cgi as a 400/375hp engine along with 3 other 375 hp engines.

I also have pix of the engine in a car with the smog pump/accessories attached.

[Steve_Hoog]

It does look like GM was gearing up for production, why else would they have set up codes. They must have invested a substantial amount of money in the RAV program.

They had even converted the base of the ram air cleaner to accept the holley, as "5RA" is listed in the the air cleaner block on several RAIV build sheets.

Tried your link out, some one has a nice site there.

[Jeff H]

Steve, what is that other unber stamped on the block? Isn't that the engine production number? If so, wasn't it part of a sequential numbering scheme? If that's true as well, then shouldn't that number be related to some date range? Then you can see if the engine was built before or after the car was built. How do the dates relate on the block vs the car's build date? Jack, I'll try to get those magazine articles loaded up later today and link them in so people can take a look at them. The smog setup makes you think they were trying to prep it for regular production. You can also see the heat riser tubes for the air cleaner which would also be for a production engine.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff
I too have wondered about the number, the one block that I have had in my physical sight other than this one had the number only. No production code, no SR, and VIN... so I'm not sure. I'll check on the date code next time I talk to Gary, after I get to the bottom of the production code then I'll work on that long number. I should say if I get to the bottom of it, nothing about this has been easy.
Steve

[DaJudge]

Please find attached a picture of the stamping on the front of my RA IV block. This is off a one owner fully documented car. This RA IV JUDGE is a Pontiac Michigan Car which is where the car in question is from. Take a look at the font of the stamping the W in the picture you show is not even close to the style of the font on my block. Look at the engine production serial number above as well. I know for a fact mine is correct the vin is on the block to the passneger side of the timing cover. The casting or part number for a RAM AIR V block is also different as well it is not shared with any 400 block Pontiac Manufactured.

I have been involved with Pontiacs for twenty years, besides the Crystal Turquoise Bobcat car I have only seen one other car with a Ram Air V in it. The owner was restoring a 69 Judge and it was of course Carousel Red. The owner must have wanted the ultimate Judge and found and installed a Ram Air V engine with all the right parts in it. Purely PMD out New Mexico did this car and it was very nice, I saw this car at Dennis Kirbans GTO reunion show that he sponsored years ago. That engine had the block casting numbers but did not have any other markings on it as I recall.

From all the GTO's the I have owned and seen, the stamp on that block does not look right. I have a very open mind to ideas and would love for this car to be a factory V car. But this motor was never emissions certified and the only way that I feel that motor got between those fender wells is by a mech at Knafel Pontiac. After all the research I have done regarding Pontiac GTO restoration and history all markers point to a dealer converted car unless there is a Proctecto Plate or build sheet that shows a RA V serial production code in it this car has to be seen as a dealer installed Ram Air V option. Which is not a bad thing.

The only question I have is why do you or someone else want to make this car something it is not? If Knafel dealer installed this engine that is great. He converted a IV car to a V car as an option.

[Jeff H]

Your picture was not attached to your post. I'm not a Pontiac person so I have no idea what their stampings look like. I agree that a dealer converted RA V is a very special car like the early Yenko's, Nickey, Dana cars. The date on the block and the engine production number should shed some light on the timing though.

[Steve_Hoog]

I thought we were just having a general discussion about RAV? I asked to drop the debate of the car for now, and I was trying to find out if codes are on other RAV blocks. If they are, maybe then go into the actual stamping style or who when and why. I don't know that you could compare this to a regular production block.

[JLP]

Jeff,
Sorry to have jumped in and not trying to hurry you along at all. Just wanted steved and others to understand that there is information to substantiate the fact that they were trying to certify the engine for production.

For others I sent Jeff quite a bit of information that he is going to put on a link for all to view. Both magazine articles and lots of pictures. Just be patient with him and he will get it to us when he can. I assume he has a life outside this forum. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Jeff H]

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I assume he has a life outside this forum. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was at Englishtown today for the last day of the season. Perfect weather for late November. Saw some nice Mopars(Cuda and 69 Charger) running low 12's and those turbo Buick's running mid-high 9's.