1970 gto judge ram air IV

[Steve_Hoog]

I was thinking as I wrote that last question, I should go back and see if you can tell in the pic Mike posted. And it does appear to be white, but my eyesight has been fading in the last few years. I could be wrong.

[BillyBobcat]

Back to the Tunnel Port topic... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/[/img]

Greetings fellow Gearheads! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img] My name is Bill Schultz, and I have owned the 1969 Royal Bobcat GTO since 1979. After the Royal GTOís restoration in the mid 80ís, I have spent a great deal of time and energy researching Tunnel Port engines and their history. After reading the posts concerning RAM AIR V GTOís delivered to Knafel Pontiac, I would like to share the following information that you may find very helpful in regards to this matter:

1) The closest thing to a ìrealî RAM AIR V factory GTO would have to be the turquoise & white Royal Bobcat GTO. This car, actually a RAM AIR IV car, had a PMD Engineering dyno RAM AIR V installed by Royal and tested for Pontiac. This car was the earliest known GTO to use a RA V, and no one was allowed to open the engine up for inspection. The motor was returned to engineering after testing.

2) My factory paper work has an ìEngineering Developmentî notation on it. I would assume any GTO with something as extreme as an engine substitution by Pontiac should have a similar notation. The ìmemoî data on the invoices could refer to anything such as a special option addition, a stripe or paint upgrade, special delivery fees, or added components put in the trunk. Oddly enough, the dealer cost ($76.00) and the retail price ($105.32) of these particular ìspecial equipmentî features reflect the exact cost of a couple of available options on the ë70 GTO at that time.

3) The exhaust situation would prove to be very difficult. The Royal GTO served as the initial template for ìAî body Tunnel Port headers. Taken to JR Headers in Hillsdale, Michigan, they created the first tubular headers offered. These were fender-well units requiring the inner fender to be opened up. Initially these were the only units available in late 1969 & early 1970. Are these the headers on these '70 Judges? Additionally, with few actual exhaust manifolds available and no head pipes ever made, where would the exhaust have come from? It is doubtful Engineering would have made an exhaust, let alone several for multiple cars. I doubt Engineering would have installed headers, though Knafel could have. The warranty and liability ramifications of such a vehicle change for a retail customer would have been huge! The ì$105.32î charge shown on the invoice for these cars could not logically have been for such a large feat as substituting a very expensive motor, making an exhaust, and dealing with the liability issues of the time.

4) Although I do not know Mr. Knafel personally, and I do respect some of the fine racing accomplishments by his dealer, I have been told through the years by other Pontiac authorities, magazine writers, and fellow rival dealership personnel that some of the stories and recollections of his may be slightly exaggerated. I do not know this myself, but if you have dozens of people giving you information, and one person contradicts that information, you typically would have to go with the masses. In my discussions with PMD Engineering staff, press people, dealer personnel and others such as Jim Mattison of PHS, no one has even entertained the thought of Factory RA V GTOís.

In conclusion, based on the above information, I can see nothing to indicate the possibility of ìFactoryî RA V Judges. It is not up to anyone to prove that Pontiac ìdid notî put Tunnel Ports in from the factory, rather it is up to those who believe they did to prove it. I have seen no evidence of this at all, so my thoughts have to go with the real world facts at this point. I deal with concrete facts, and there are none in this case.

Now...letís hear from all the folks who have ìfactoryî RAM AIR VI Tunnel Ports in their cars!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Bill [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img]

[442w30]

This was before my time, but didn't Lilly Tomlin say somethin' like, "And that's the truthhhhhhh!"? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Steve_Hoog]

Bill
Will you please post your ìEngineering Developmentî document?
Steve

[BillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill
Will you please post your ìEngineering Developmentî document?
Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] I am sorry, but I'm not interested in posting any of my personal paperwork on the internet. The topic is in regards to Factory Ram Air V 1970 Judges [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]. I still have seen no proof of their existance. Until such proof is provided, I will continue to believe that there are no Factory Ram Air Tunnel Ports.

Bill [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/[/img]

[Steve_Hoog]

Bill

What a shame. Until you can back up your claim with the document, I have to consider it unreliable. This would be a very interesting piece if it does exist, but you render it as hearsay without the document post.

Steve

[Steve_Hoog]

And by the way, after last nights phone conversations from this forum, let me just post my phone number in here so you don't have to get it from my website. That will save you a couple of clicks and we can talk sooner. If there is anyone left that wants to talk on the phone, I ain't skeerd.

918-260-0151

[GTO_DON]

I wasnt going to post again on this subject,but i have to say that STEVED AND MRMUSCLE are completly out of line to try and disclaim what BILL SHULTZ said in his post! I dont know him,but i know he owns probably the best and most documented RAV GTO IN THE WORLD! PERIOD!! To say his info is unreliable because the man wont show you his docs on the car is sad! now thats a shame! I dont know who these guys are, or what cars they own, IF ANY, but it sounds like they are jealous. I dont care if they find out knafel put an all aluminum RAVIII in that silver judge,It will never be worth half of that crystal turquiose car!! As for mikes 70 TIN INDIAN, that car is KILLER! I cant wait to see a finished product.I wish i would have found it!,but i dont believe its the car from the promotional pic. I think the build date on your car is november or december,and you would think that pic is one of the first 70 judges off the line,if not the first,which would be an august car. plus that car was a black winger which came with black stripes to match.I believe the judge decal on your decklid is blue and didnt the black wing cars have WT7 on the build sheet? it was also the same car in the 2page ad with the car crossing the street,but who knows if it was the car that would be the iceing on the cake! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img] Back to the judge; I have a great idea! why dont we find all the assembly line workers that put the car together on that cold day in 69 and maybe just maybe they will know! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

[mrmuscle]

don, you are the one who is way off the beat. i dont think the assembly line workers could shed any light on the subject other than they built a couple of ra 4 cars. it is the engineering "hobby shop" that would have done the swap. just like the early sd cars. as for the value of the silver car, i guarantee you that it is totally irrelevant to gary what it is worth. he has made that clear on many of his super rare cars. he likes them and if they are worth a million or worth 50 cents he wont sell them. if you dont believe it, call him up and offer him a hundred grand for his 70 ra 4 t/a he has had since he was a kid. he would laugh at you. why dont you do us all a favor and dont post anymore. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif[/img]

[Steve_Hoog]

Don

I consider myself a savoy computer person, it took me two or three post before I got the hang of the basic tools and workings in here. Not to mention I was so absorbed in putting up my voice, the tool bar was the last thing I was worried about. Now unless this Billybob is a seasoned veteran in your forum and just created a new ID just for the disscussion, I'm a little confused how he got so good so fast.

And if you want to know what cars I have, where I live, where I work, what my dogs name is... all of that information and more is on my web page linked in my profile.

It is not unreasonable for me to ask to see a document in a forum where there is no accountability for the creation of an ID.

And most important to your concerns, I thought his statement was very interesting and thought seeing the document would be benifical. And sorry, I didn't want to copy it and make a forgery of it.

Charley said it all so well, if your not comfortable about doing it in here.. do it in private. Guess what, Billybob did not do that either.

Steve