1970 gto judge ram air IV

[GTO_DON]

Well said! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

[Jeff H]

Kind of like a factory built LS7 car. Each division has its top of the line, all out racing setup that never became a production option. I think we'd like to see proof of each of these being built, but it would have to be very definitive proof. IMO, "spec perf" could mean anything, but with the RAIV engine designation I can't see it referring to a different engine upgrade.

[sixtiesmuscle]

My Knafel "Tin Indian" RA IV Judge was shipped eight days before the car in question. The dealer invoice shows exactly the same items except for the turbo/hydro & console. Wouldn't the early, November 15, ship date exclude the possibility of a RA V anyway? When was that engine announced?

[Steve_Hoog]

I work GM dealership, back door deals still go on to this very day. Last year as a perk to our dealership (and a couple of others around the country) GM released several engines VIA backdoor including one of the all so awesome LT5 Corvette motors made in Stillwater Oklahoma, every single nut bolt and wire ready to run drop in out of the crate. There was NO "NON" NO official paper work that went through invoicing, this is approximately a $10,000 dollar engine. Why is it so hard to believe that a RAV engine couldn't have been installed back in 1970 with minimal notation on a PHS? Bill Knafel's explanation for the "memo" price being low was because the RAIV motor was never really put in the car, so the amount of "memo" was on top of the RAIV billing to somewhat compensate for the overall price tag. Out of the ordinary billings occur to this day in the GM arena, they call them policy adjustments. I submit to the boards viewers this was one of those policy adjustments. SD cars are accepted as factory produced cars, correct? If this car was built under similar circumstances, can it be accepted as a factory built car? To me, when they roll off the transport from GM they are a factory car. Bill Knafel has made an official statement this is the case with this Judge, that it came from engineering with this motor in it off the transport. Does anyone in here know who Bill is? And will back up his word?

Literally everyone on this board has mentioned some story they are aware of that is out of the ordinary. A great quote some one made on a previous page, "never say never".

[Steve_Hoog]

I am fascinated with the blue and white Tin Indian, I love that car and have posted several pics on our dealership web sight of that car. Bill has stated that several of the RAV cars came to his dealership, do you also have the "memo" on your invoice? Can you post it? The RAV over the counter sales started in 69, so I don't think the 8 day difference would be a factor.

Again I love this blue and white car!!!
Some old race stuff if your interested.

[Charley Lillard]

"Bill Knafel has made an official statement this is the case with this Judge, that it came from engineering with this motor in it off the transport." I would like to believe that this stuff happened very much on the Sly and would venture a Guess it would be done under the Radar enough so People like Jim Mattison and others would not notice. How it gets proven I don't know but I kinda agree with never say never.

[442w30]

Where's Astock? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Now that things have turned a bit friendlier . . . could the car have been delivered with a RAV? Possibly. But, if so, chances are the car was created with an RPO engine and then the RAV substituted. But I don't know why that would be. After all, if the RAV was available over the counter, wouldn't Knafel be able to do it themselves?

For now, factory documentation is the only proof. Till there is some other proof, I won't believe it. I don't understand why some are believing the speculation when if the same thing was said about a COPO, proof would be expected.

Also, there are some in the Pontiac community who don't always lend creedence to what Jim Wangers or the Knafels have to say. There's some good insight, but it is not always gospel.

[Astock]

When I heard Jim M's post, I was actually relieved knowing that I had given the car away. Then I thought back to what the Knafels had told me, how they were 100% positive that the car was delivered to them with a RA V engine. I also recall how excited I heard they were about this car surfacing. Why would they have been so excited about a mere RA IV car. How many RA IV cars do you think went through their dealership along with all of the other significant cars? What would they possibly have to gain by making this claim?

[MotownMadman]

I will not say that it is not possible that the V engine was installed at enginneering, that could mean anything from at the research and development department to the proving grounds. Charlies post lends credence to this. Did the car travel down the assembly line with the V engine? Not likely. The build sheet shows the IV, which is therefore what would have been installed as it traveled down the line. It appears possibly both sides may be correct here, it was NOT a factory installed engine, but it MAY have been delivered to the dealer with it installed. A similar case exists in the Ford collector car community, the 1970 Boss 302 Mustang with AC. After much debate and research by many it seems the AC was installed by Ford enginneering. People are on both sides of the fence as to if the car is a factory build or not, with an engineering altered or assembled car I would have to say no, for if the cars that come from the engineering department become factory built that would mean every one off prototype built by every automaker would then have to be considered a "Factory Build", which is just not the case. In the case the engine was installed by Pontiac engineering that does indeed make it a unique car, but in the abcense of documentation to support where and when and by whom it was installed it lives as a IV car with a V engine installed along the way by someone. Aside from all of that it is still a very neat car, many of the current Supercars were dealer assembled and stand at the top of the hobby today. This becomes a case of wording and interpretation, the words "Original", "Factory", "#s Matching", all have to be used in the correct context with this car. If everyone decides they dont want it due to the debates I would be more then happy to give it a home.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

[John Glasgo]

This is an interesting post,maybe i can add to it.I am friends with ASTOCK,and Bill Knafel,both are straight up guys.I too have seen this car,it is very interesting,and i wished i would have bought it.Anyways,Knafel did get some very special stuff,and alot of it is still around. In 64 my father ordered an aluminum hood for his 64 gto,it took a while,but it did come in,how many other dealors could have gotton this? Around 1989 i went to look at a distributor machine that was in the newspaper for sale,laying next to the machine on a shelf,was a complete Ram Air 5 top end,heads,intake,factory numbered Holley carb,RA 5 Dist(TI)With the oe red cap,camshaft,and FACTORY GTO EXHAUST MANIFOLDS!The guy that owned this stuff was a farmer,who bought the parts of a guy that owned a towing company,he had all the parts on o 66 Bonneville,except the exhaust manifolds,which would not fit the B-body chassis,but they were on a car at some point!The guy that owned the bonne died,and nobody knew where he got the parts from,could they have been off this Judge? Who knows.I did buy the parts,and built a 69 gto around them,actually showed it at POCI,and the GTO Nats.So could this Judge have been built in engineering with a 5 motor,maybe,these parts came from somewhere,and until 1990 had been in Akron the whole time!