Unsuspecting buyers with repro documents

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MosportGreen66

During an NCRS technical event a few weeks ago, Grenning shared photos of not only dealer errors but also factory errors on documents, trim tags, vin tags and even engine stamps. Human error is not a good metric for determining authenticity. Font style and type, maybe...

Pontiac Motor Division went the entire 1964 model year with the Sales Code 644 description "FAN HEAVEY DUTY" on the window stickers.

K

[ZLP955]

Originally Posted by Mr70

Why restore an old car with reproduction parts mirroring the original used by the factory when it was sold brand new?...Because that best resembles how it looked when it was sold brand new.
If they just came with "a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options,selling dealer etc," then they'd do that today too.

Fake docs are problematic because they appear credible to all but a few experts. Just read threads like this one to see knowledgeable people who have been around these cars much of their life, genuinely asking how to spot the subtleties of a good fake.
Reproduction parts don't offer a sense of immediate credibility, and only hint at what a car may, or may not, be - further diligence and appraisal is still required.

[StealthBird]

Originally Posted by TAR6569

The dealer never typed up the window sticker. That was something done at the plant or maybe the zone office. Only a few times have I seen a real typed window sticker. Usually it was for a car that was used in company service. Could have been so the sticker shows the dealer same up top instead of the zone office. Or could have been to get the sticker down to 1 page from 2 if it was loaded with options (and being sold through a Chevy dealer). I suppose it could have been used to fix a mistake too if it was that big of a problem.

The fonts are something I usually pick up on. The printed font is very distinctive to my eyes. I can usually tell if someone tried to type it on a line or used a regular printer. The typed stickers I have seen all used the same typeface from what I recall.

This vette sticker doesn't have the exception codes either, which would have been on there, even if it was originally typed. No dealer codes, and yes, it should have the paint and interior listed.

I think I would have enjoyed that technical event. I remember seeing a misspelling on a original window sticker once, some time ago. Not sure if I've seen another. I'd definitely look closer if it had a mistake. Do you remember what types of errors were on the documents? I've seen errors on vin and cowl tags. Saw a Wagon with a four door sedan vin tag once. Was factory. Also, a 16437 Impala that had a 16447 vin.

Dealers did type up window stickers. They weren't supposed to, but they did.

Sometimes a car hung around a dealer for months, driven by the dealer owner, maybe a demo car, and sometimes they would remove the window sticker for safety's sake because it blocks your view. You can imagine there were times when that window sticker would be lost, and the dealer was supposed to request a new one from Zone, but some dealers simply loaded up a blank window sticker and had the dealer secretary or cashier type up a new one.

I keep a database of all the factory mistakes made on 1962-1981 Pontiac window stickers. Most are spelling mistakes, some subtle, others quite embarrassing. Sometimes Pontiac corrected the error the following year, other times the error stuck around for several years. It also varied by plant as to how options were formatted and terminology.

Mike

[TAR6569]

Where would get the blank form from? From the dealer demo's I have seen, they simply typed up the options on the dealer invoice or used the car shipper document if the prospective buyer wanted to know the equipment.

It seems like it would be a lot of work for the dealer to type one up correctly as you have to know the standard equipment. I'd love to see one.

[StealthBird]

I have a couple original 1969 Pontiac blanks, with the carbon paper and backing intact, along with the perforated ears from the tractor feed paper.

The Zone Office, as well as dealerships, were not as careful about accuracy as we would expect. When a window sticker was supposed to be reprinted, they used the punched card to feed the printer. I think occasionally they couldn't locate the card so they simply stuck a window sticker blank into a typewriter and called it a day. The typewriter versions I've seen are usually pretty accurate and follow the formatting for that particular plant.

Aside from typos on factory window stickers, I also have a few other examples where there are handwritten notes (dated) stating that the window sticker was reprinted for a specific reason. One was for a billing error, another was for a transmission change. Some dealers bent over backwards to make the sale, and if some guy wanted a Lucerne Blue 1971 GTO that was on the lot, and he wanted it today, but the deal breaker was that it had Rally II Wheels instead of Honeycomb Wheels, a salesman would locate another vehicle on the lot with Honeycombs and have them swapped out. Anything to make a sale. I believe in those cases the dealership may type up their own window sticker to reflect the change.

Mike

[firstgenaddict]

Request a new one from Zone leads one to believe there is a data set with the VIN numbers corresponding to the option list for said VIN.

[Mr70]

Originally Posted by ZLP955

Fake docs are problematic because they appear credible to all but a few experts. Just read threads like this one to see knowledgeable people who have been around these cars much of their life, genuinely asking how to spot the subtleties of a good fake.
Reproduction parts don't offer a sense of immediate credibility, and only hint at what a car may, or may not, be - further diligence and appraisal is still required.

My earlier repro parts reply was to when you asked,"why mimic the appearance of an original document?"..I never said anything about reproduction parts offering any credibility to a vehicle.

Reproduction display docs should be destroyed by the owner before re-sale.

[ZLP955]

^ Or better, in my opinion, not exist at all.
I respect your views, perhaps we can agree to disagree.

[MosportGreen66]

Originally Posted by ZLP955

^ Or better, in my opinion, not exist at all.
I respect your views, perhaps we can agree to disagree.

Tim, my position - I will never agree with any aspect of our hobby that cognitively or not perpetuates fraud. Period.

Dan

[x33rs]

Maybe we should just stick to collecting Pontiacs and Fords. At least Jim Mattison and Kevin Marti offer the real deal.