Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro

[m22mike]

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Yea, you sure can't blame the Corvette guys that there are more BE rears today than were ever made.

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They might be stammped to look like a BE.....but try and find the goodies that go inside.
If it were a car I did there would be a bunce of photo's of the inside stuff.
Mike

Mike

[Steve Shauger]

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I dont think that one can blame the vette guys for the re-stamps of the Camaros. Chevelles,etc....The fact that they were first is a simple matter of economics. They were the first cars to be worth the effort ($$$) to obtain a restamped motor. The Camaros, Chevelles,etc. were just waiting for the values to go up.

At the Camaro Nationals in Carlisle, can a Camaro get a top award in the judging competition if the judges cannot tell it is a restamp?? If the restamp looks perfect??I suspect very few people admit that their motor is restamped even if they knew!!! So what other method is there for the judges?? If I put used or NOS parts on my car that are absolutely correct, I would not expect my car to be marked down...whether it is the block, heads, air cleaner or any other part...whether it is the original born-with parts or not!!

I have to stick up for the Vette guys here!! jmo

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When judging, my opinion:
NOS parts should only be awarded full point, if they match what was used in the original production of the car. Many NOS parts are worthless because they do not represent factory production parts. In fact many reproduction parts are much more accuarte and I feel that they should receive higher point due to accuracy and represent "best available". When possible use I recommend recondition original parts.

Restamping of components permeates virtually all brands and models. Fingers can be pointed, but that resolves nothing except make certain groups defensive.

In many cases restamped components can be detected, but once the restampers learn what the judges look for they hone their craft. Unfortunately you have individual funding the restoration drivetrain companies(restamper) enabling them to perfect their craft of deception. So who is to blame... car owners, judging programs, dealers, hobbyist, take your pick.

Regarding the Camaro nationals when restamped components are detected, the car scores based on that fact and it is noted and documented. It (restamping of components)is in no way embraced or justified. Are restamps undetected of course, but like cars judges are not perfect.

[DarrenX33]

So what is the general thought on the proper way to restore a car that no longer has its original motor, trans or etc..

Do you just get a part that is cast correctly and ignore build stamps and VIN? Or just stamp the build stamp and leave the VIN off? Curious as I am building my motor now for my 70 L78.

[Steve Shauger]

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So what is the general thought on the proper way to restore a car that no longer has its original motor, trans or etc..

Do you just get a part that is cast correctly and ignore build stamps and VIN? Or just stamp the build stamp and leave the VIN off? Curious as I am building my motor now for my 70 L78.

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Stamp it NOM

[Charley Lillard]

Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

[TimG]

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I happen to believe that NCRS IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the state of the art regarding restamped engines. Their judging guidelines require a block to "appear" original for full credit. Full credit means a "top" award, and accordingly an increased value of the car. There's a BIG difference between an original car and one that "appears" original.
This practice started with Corvettes; not Camaros, Chevelles, COPOs, Impalas, Fords, Mopars or any other car. It would have happened sooner or later of course for other marques, but it was the Corvette "hobby" that spawned it.

Let's have a national judging competition for fake Mona Lisas. Call in all the art experts and have them judge everyone's "reproductions". If nothing can be observed that is any different than the original, then they all get a perfect score, are deserving of the same credit as the original and are worth a LOT more money. Afterall, they've been signed off to be as (or as good as) an original. (what's the difference in that judging venue?)



And that's the WHOLE problem. There is NO difference between a clone that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award and an original car that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award!. Both earned the same points.......the same award......the same stature......and the same increased value......






Ah, but there is a difference between an original car that earns a Top Flight award and a clone that earns a Top Flight award, a large financial difference that a knowledgeable buyer will probably be aware of. Those inside the hobby know or should do their homework to be sure they are buying a quality car with history. That's were the leg work comes in. If you buy a clone for an original car price, it is a shame. Did the buyer do the proper leg work to determine the vehicles history, did they buy a car with no paperwork?
Does any other organization have a program to send in a copy of the paperwork, trim tag, or pad stamp for a professional opinion of its originality? If cars are being made up to satisfy judging standards, people behind the scene are helping prevent these cars from being sold as such.
Do any other organizations publish books or put on seminars on how to verify original engine stamps or trim tags?
NCRS devised a standard for quality cars to achieve a Top Flight and I respect that standard. I've had 20 cars judged over the years at NCRS events. I don't think that NCRS should be criticized for devising a standard of what a good car is and then be criticized because individuals create cars to fall into those standards. Texas has one of the strongest NCRS Chapters in the Country and our Waco Regional is attended by some of the most knowledgeable NCRS judges and finest Corvettes in existence. Some cars have restamp motors, fake trim tags, add on sidepipes and other items to maximize their points. I venture to say that most completely made up cars are not able to achieve Top Flight status, if they do, they are surrounded by suspicion. Word gets out on these cars and they don't bring the premium dollars of a real car with real paperwork and real history. Today, any car you buy had best have some history or paperwork to back it up if it is a rare piece. Do your homework because there is lots junk out there that looks pretty.
If you attend a strong NCRS event with knowledgeable judges, you'd be surprised to see the disappointed owners when they find out their trim tag has been replaced or their engine is a definite restamp. NCRS does not like that stuff, it's bad for the organization and bad for the reputation of the cars.

[Hylton]

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Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

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The guy was smart!


I also agree with Verne with regard to the need to ensure that real, honest and true cars (whether they have been restored or not), need to be held in higher regard then a correct or well "engineered" car has. Judging criteria needs to be re-visited so that Top Flight and gold awards do not go out to BS cars.

There needs to be a class where forensic judging occurs. This means that all body panel dates and stamps are looked at and compared to a library of records and pictures on a computer (laptop) so that a clear conclusion can be made.

Points should be deducted for the re-application of the vin tag, trim tag, re-stamps, non-original body panels and interior parts and so on.....

[COPO 70 RS/Z28]

After the auctions we have these discussions of things that happened and our views of them. I look at this as a problem for the longevity of the "hobby" because it erodes the confidence of those on the entry level. The continued interest in these cars is what keeps the hobby alive. If the hobbyist or customer base becomes or remains stagnant or actually shrinks the hobby will slowly die. How long will it be before the stress level of making the big purchase takes the enjoyment out of it. If it is the value/price issue that is of concern one can look at it as a decrease in demand and an increase in supply and we all know where that leads. People can continue to buy and sell cars to each other but down the road if the new blood does not come in because the new blood has no confidence in the product or is so intimidated that they don't want to get in where does that leave things.

If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy was smart!


I also agree with Verne with regard to the need to ensure that real, honest and true cars (whether they have been restored or not), need to be held in higher regard then a correct or well "engineered" car has. Judging criteria needs to be re-visited so that Top Flight and gold awards do not go out to BS cars.

There needs to be a class where forensic judging occurs. This means that all body panel dates and stamps are looked at and compared to a library of records and pictures on a computer (laptop) so that a clear conclusion can be made.

Points should be deducted for the re-application of the vin tag, trim tag, re-stamps, non-original body panels and interior parts and so on..... [/quote ]I know that I would welcome that type of judging to help separate the real from the fakes. This would help the hobby in the near and long term.

[Stuart Adams]

[ QUOTE ]
After the auctions we have these discussions of things that happened and our views of them. I look at this as a problem for the longevity of the "hobby" because it erodes the confidence of those on the entry level. The continued interest in these cars is what keeps the hobby alive. If the hobbyist or customer base becomes or remains stagnant or actually shrinks the hobby will slowly die. How long will it be before the stress level of making the big purchase takes the enjoyment out of it. If it is the value/price issue that is of concern one can look at it as a decrease in demand and an increase in supply and we all know where that leads. People can continue to buy and sell cars to each other but down the road if the new blood does not come in because the new blood has no confidence in the product or is so intimidated that they don't want to get in where does that leave things.

If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

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I agree, it's been happening for years and getting worse. Thank goodness for this site and a few dealers (like Colin)to kinda keep em somewhat in check. It really has taken out all the fun for me personally, and alot of the previous owners that you call about a certain car feel the same way, i.e Dr. Milton Kim. Sad in a way.