Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro

[showyourauto]

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"Numbers matching engine" at Barrett-Jackson now means the engine and trans have the same restamps, or the block predates the car.

"Numbers matching car" means all four tires are the same size.

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Thank the Corvette sector of the hobby for this one. This born the form effort to continue to maufacture concours topflight and GOLD winners. Restamping has gotten so good, proving the "numbers matching" motor is the original has become an exercise in proving a negative.- Prove that it's NOT a re-stamp and then I've believe it's original.

IMHO, in this "new world" the more things that you have to prove the car is the genuine article aside from the engine, the less impact having a replacement block or a re-stamp has on the value of the vehicle. On well documented cars, an original motor becomes the cherry on top rather than the whole cake. Frankly, we all know most muscle cars blew their top before some of us were out of diapers...

[Steve Shauger]

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"Numbers matching engine" at Barrett-Jackson now means the engine and trans have the same restamps, or the block predates the car.

"Numbers matching car" means all four tires are the same size.

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No, all four tires have matching pressure #'s 32psi.

[SBR]

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"Numbers matching engine" at Barrett-Jackson now means the engine and trans have the same restamps, or the block predates the car.

"Numbers matching car" means all four tires are the same size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank the Corvette sector of the hobby for this one. This born the form effort to continue to maufacture concours topflight and GOLD winners. Restamping has gotten so good, proving the "numbers matching" motor is the original has become an exercise in proving a negative.- Prove that it's NOT a re-stamp and then I've believe it's original.

IMHO, in this "new world" the more things that you have to prove the car is the genuine article aside from the engine, the less impact having a replacement block or a re-stamp has on the value of the vehicle. On well documented cars, an original motor becomes the cherry on top rather than the whole cake. Frankly, we all know most muscle cars blew their top before some of us were out of diapers...

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe I am wrong but to blame restamps on Corvette owners/organizations is irresponsible. I know that I have seen plenty of fraud with all types of cars. I blame people who are only in it for the money, not for the love of cars, in other words greed!

[showyourauto]

The Corvette judging bodies have no problem with restamps, because the objective is to bring the car back to dealer showroom condition and originality. Inside the judging world, a disclosed restamp is not a faux pas. It is practice promoted by the mere fact that you cannot achieve an NCRS Top Flight or a Bloomington Gold with an NOM or even a CE block with paperwork to back it up as a legit warranty replacement. Most people I've encountered outside the Corvette judging world look ANY restamping as attempt at fraud. Plainly put, the practice has been fostered and perfected so people can chase trophies. Without that incentive, my judgment is that the practice would be much less prevalent or difficult to detect. The general collector community doesn't value the restamp the same way. They want original so unscrupulous sellers take "numbers matching" and represent it as original. For better or worst that is the state of the union.

[Hylton]

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As far as the shill bidding, I'm a car dealer by trade. I go to wholesale auctions weekly. Shill bidding is as common as a cup of bad coffee.It happens on , I'd bet 70% of all cars thru a wholesale auction. If the seller won't sell the car under, say, $10,000 , the auctioneer runs the car there [$9900] with or without a 'real' bidder. Next 'real' bid buys the car. [these are NOT 'no reserve' auctions..]

Yeah if I was the buyer I'd be pissed off Reggie was a seemingly obvious shill for the owner...but that's the way auctions are. It can be a really lousy place to buy a car...wholesale or retail.

I personally wouldn't get NEAR a collector car at an auction without superior knowledge about a car...

Maybe the buyer knew exactly what he was doing...he paid the premium to be on TV.



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Shill bidding is part of the sellers agreement at Russo Steele Reserve Auction as explained by Drew last Feb:


"Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller. RS further reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to Sell the Vehicle at a high bid price less than that price identified as the “Reserve Price,” provided that RS nets the Seller the specified reserve amount less all-applicable sales commissions and fees.


This clause is clearly stated in Russo and Steele’s Consignment Agreement under section 8, d.

Drew Alcazar"

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Mecum and others have the same type of language in their contracts, allowing the owner of a car bid on their own vehicle up to the reserve.

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I don't see the harm in this, it's not going to sell if it fails to meet reserve, and it takes a real buyer (willing to pay what he bids) to get it past reserve. You might have a willing buyer sitting at $25,000 below reserve, nobody to bid against him, who is also willing to pay the reserve price? You wouldn't have a sale if they didn't push the bid to the reserve. If the guy at $25K below is not willing to pay the reserve price then it doesn't sell. Tell me who gets hurt?

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To me it artificially inflates the price a real bidder is willing to spend and what the real market price of the car(not what the seller wants). If I'm at an auction I don't want to bid against myself. If a car doesn't legitimately meet reserve then possibly something could be negotiated by both buyer& seller once it is off the block.

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I see your point and yes, a deal may occur after the auction but the way I see it, you bid on a car with a cieling number in your head regarding how much you are willing to pay. If someone does that, it really doesn't matter if it was shilled up or not.

Besides, do we really believe that these auctions are what truly determines the value of these cars?

[Stuart Adams]

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As far as the shill bidding, I'm a car dealer by trade. I go to wholesale auctions weekly. Shill bidding is as common as a cup of bad coffee.It happens on , I'd bet 70% of all cars thru a wholesale auction. If the seller won't sell the car under, say, $10,000 , the auctioneer runs the car there [$9900] with or without a 'real' bidder. Next 'real' bid buys the car. [these are NOT 'no reserve' auctions..]

Yeah if I was the buyer I'd be pissed off Reggie was a seemingly obvious shill for the owner...but that's the way auctions are. It can be a really lousy place to buy a car...wholesale or retail.

I personally wouldn't get NEAR a collector car at an auction without superior knowledge about a car...

Maybe the buyer knew exactly what he was doing...he paid the premium to be on TV.



[/ QUOTE ]


Shill bidding is part of the sellers agreement at Russo Steele Reserve Auction as explained by Drew last Feb:


"Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller. RS further reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to Sell the Vehicle at a high bid price less than that price identified as the “Reserve Price,” provided that RS nets the Seller the specified reserve amount less all-applicable sales commissions and fees.


This clause is clearly stated in Russo and Steele’s Consignment Agreement under section 8, d.

Drew Alcazar"

[/ QUOTE ]

Mecum and others have the same type of language in their contracts, allowing the owner of a car bid on their own vehicle up to the reserve.

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I don't see the harm in this, it's not going to sell if it fails to meet reserve, and it takes a real buyer (willing to pay what he bids) to get it past reserve. You might have a willing buyer sitting at $25,000 below reserve, nobody to bid against him, who is also willing to pay the reserve price? You wouldn't have a sale if they didn't push the bid to the reserve. If the guy at $25K below is not willing to pay the reserve price then it doesn't sell. Tell me who gets hurt?

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To me it artificially inflates the price a real bidder is willing to spend and what the real market price of the car(not what the seller wants). If I'm at an auction I don't want to bid against myself. If a car doesn't legitimately meet reserve then possibly something could be negotiated by both buyer& seller once it is off the block.

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I see your point and yes, a deal may occur after the auction but the way I see it, you bid on a car with a cieling number in your head regarding how much you are willing to pay. If someone does that, it really doesn't matter if it was shilled up or not.

Besides, do we really believe that these auctions are what truly determines the value of these cars?

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I think BJ has zero to do with setting the prices of cars. People may think that but it's only about bringing in more than you spend, same for all us. It's fun to get together, see all the cars, shoot the breeze, do some charity work - that work's really well for the seller - talk about a super inflated tax deduction. It's a business that has to be about selling other owners cars to other people, period. We can bash, talk, whatever, at the end of the day it is what it is. This is the most knowledgable place to be, seriously.

[Stuart Adams]

I saw today in the AZ Republic where BJ collected 64 million, a 28% decrease. 30% less value sounds about right overall, some cars more, some less. All but one auction company that week was down. Hopefully all the values will go up in the years to come, then of course we'll say "he paid that much for it" LOL.

[TimG]

"The Corvette judging bodies have no problem with restamps"

This is not true, if engine judges smell a restamp, the engine is busted. Heck, if they don't like the look of an original engine, they bust it. This happens on a regular basis. Some judges estimate the number of broach marks per inch on a pad and will bust an engine for that.
Bottom line is that if the restamp is "typical factory production in appearance" it will pass. This doesn't mean that a restamp is OK, but there is not enough evidence to prove that it is a restamp, some are done very well. Something like being innocent until proven guilty.
Granted, lots of restamps make it though NCRS judging, but if it is an obvious restamp, it won't. As I said, lots of original engines don't make it thought NCRS judging. I've seen it personally with vehicles I know about. The pad has to have the appearance of "typical factory production" if it does with out question meet this criteria, it passes. If it doesn't, it is busted, original or restamp.

[Unreal]

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As far as the shill bidding, I'm a car dealer by trade. I go to wholesale auctions weekly. Shill bidding is as common as a cup of bad coffee.It happens on , I'd bet 70% of all cars thru a wholesale auction. If the seller won't sell the car under, say, $10,000 , the auctioneer runs the car there [$9900] with or without a 'real' bidder. Next 'real' bid buys the car. [these are NOT 'no reserve' auctions..]

Yeah if I was the buyer I'd be pissed off Reggie was a seemingly obvious shill for the owner...but that's the way auctions are. It can be a really lousy place to buy a car...wholesale or retail.

I personally wouldn't get NEAR a collector car at an auction without superior knowledge about a car...

Maybe the buyer knew exactly what he was doing...he paid the premium to be on TV.



[/ QUOTE ]


Shill bidding is part of the sellers agreement at Russo Steele Reserve Auction as explained by Drew last Feb:


"Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller. RS further reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to Sell the Vehicle at a high bid price less than that price identified as the “Reserve Price,” provided that RS nets the Seller the specified reserve amount less all-applicable sales commissions and fees.


This clause is clearly stated in Russo and Steele’s Consignment Agreement under section 8, d.

Drew Alcazar"

[/ QUOTE ]

Mecum and others have the same type of language in their contracts, allowing the owner of a car bid on their own vehicle up to the reserve.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the harm in this, it's not going to sell if it fails to meet reserve, and it takes a real buyer (willing to pay what he bids) to get it past reserve. You might have a willing buyer sitting at $25,000 below reserve, nobody to bid against him, who is also willing to pay the reserve price? You wouldn't have a sale if they didn't push the bid to the reserve. If the guy at $25K below is not willing to pay the reserve price then it doesn't sell. Tell me who gets hurt?

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If that's true, what difference does it make who does the shill bidding, reserve, or not? I guess it's OK for Reggie to bid until it looks like he went a step too far. Then let him retract his last bid.

Maybe someone could talk to ebay about the "automatic bidding" system. Instead of increasing by one tick over the next highest bid, it should automatically move to your high bid.

Like I said in the past, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." or, "It's their sandbox, their rules." I'm staying out of the kitchen AND the sandbox!!

[showyourauto]

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"The Corvette judging bodies have no problem with restamps"

This is not true, if engine judges smell a restamp, the engine is busted. Heck, if they don't like the look of an original engine, they bust it. This happens on a regular basis. Some judges estimate the number of broach marks per inch on a pad and will bust an engine for that.
Bottom line is that if the restamp is "typical factory production in appearance" it will pass. This doesn't mean that a restamp is OK, but there is not enough evidence to prove that it is a restamp, some are done very well. Something like being innocent until proven guilty.
Granted, lots of restamps make it though NCRS judging, but if it is an obvious restamp, it won't. As I said, lots of original engines don't make it thought NCRS judging. I've seen it personally with vehicles I know about. The pad has to have the appearance of "typical factory production" if it does with out question meet this criteria, it passes. If it doesn't, it is busted, original or restamp.

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Points well taken, perhaps it is unfair to assign blame to Corvette Judges for the proliferation of the restamping practice. With auction houses and other venues adopting the definition of "numbers matching" to being "typical factory production in appearance" it seems to further encourage restamping as a restoration practice. In fact, even original stampings without owner history to corroborate a drivetrain's origin, one cannot claim "original" with legal certainty. This forces brokers like me to also adopt the lesser standard of "numbers matching" as a descriptor rather than "original". It also puts the import of provenance over the observable traits of a car.

On the matter of "shill bidding" and dealing with the auction environment in general, I wrote a handy little article to turn the enviroment to the individuals advantage called The Art of War (Auction Style) Enjoy!