GM Facts and Fiction

[JRSully]

One of my brother's (pilot at USAIR) got HAMMERED when they went bankrupt. Before Bankruptcy: Salary - around $250-260k, nice pension set up, worked (flew) about 75 hrs/month, retire at 60 AFTER Bankruptcy: making about half of the old salary, THEY COMPLETLY WIPED OUT HIS PENSION (it was way underfunded by the way)replaced it with a piece of garbage retiremint plan that MIGHT be 1/3 of what he would have had when he is ready to retire and now working 90 hrs/month. Pissed off, off course he is, BUT he has adjusted to the cards that were delt him and living with it. His union became totally useless and is still rather useless to this day. He realizes there really is no other work out there in his field to get him back to that money and always thought he was probably paid too much money back then. If the big 3 do not bring labor to at least the same as the counterparts in the South, no amount of money will fix it. The age of "entitlements" is over in organized labor. JMHO

[WILMASBOYL78]

Well....I make my living off the car business, such as it is and these are difficult times!! Today I was at a Saturn client and saw the people in the waiting lounge watching the Congressional Bail Out Show on TV Dealer and consumer confidence is the lowest that I have ever seen....and it will get worse before it gets better.

By the way...where can I sign up for some of this government bail out money

[NovaMob03]

The ability to lease cars cheap has also put a lot of great used cars back on the market. Why buy new when you can own a low mile vehicle for half the cost?
At 54 I have yet to buy a new vehicle...and probably never will

[69 Post Sedan]

If anyone would like to try a "non-skilled" job for a week, try it. It sucks. The company has made it so that there is little time between cars/trucks. It's not like it used to be when they could read a magazine between vehicles. The workers now are getting carpal tunnel at an early age because of the work they do!

As far as wages, the workers have been giving concessions for a couple of contracts now. Their insurance has gone up and coverage has gone down.

Check out and see how much Toyota puts back into the United States education. From what I was told GM puts a lot of money back into the education system and Toyota puts nothing back in!

If they don't get the money, it tells me that Wall Street is more important than Main Street. IMO

[Salvatore]

Well said!

[COPO 70 RS/Z28]

Ya know the problem with these pensions is a lot of the old time pensions are actually owned by the company not the individual. I think the company can show the pension on the books as an asset. The problem is (US AIR, United Etc.) If the company goes down the pension goes with it not to the employees. So if this is the case with the BIG 3, the line guys etc better be careful they could end up with "0"

I dont have a pension, I've always had to save for my retirement and plan for the future. No retirement health care etc. but I think a guy signs up for a deal he should get that deal weather he's a line guy or a fat cat. But I also beleive in loyalty and doing the best job I can and taking my lumps if I screw up. I think part of the problem is there is no loyalty from the bottom to the top in this deal, it's every man for himself and it's been that way for a long time. I could be wrong, but from a guy looking in from the outside ..........

10/10 RS/Z28 The problem really a combination of things.

Most of the blame for all of this lies at the feet of the Government and the only was to solve this is term limits. The only incentive these guys have is to get re-elected, there greed is just as bad as everyone elses just a lot more dangerous.


Im not going to get political this is not the place but I think you know what I mean.

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Ya know the problem with these pensions is a lot of the old time pensions are actually owned by the company not the individual. I think the company can show the pension on the books as an asset. The problem is (US AIR, United Etc.) If the company goes down the pension goes with it not to the employees. So if this is the case with the BIG 3, the line guys etc better be careful they could end up with "0"


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you meant to say pensions are shown as liabilities on company books and so pensioners become another creditor in the event that the company declares bankruptcy. If GM goes Chapter 7, pensioners will lose everything. If GM goes Chapter 11, pensioners will probably get less then what they are getting now if anything at all.

[JRSully]

You think the DEFICIT will even be an issue once Obama takes over.? It will be SO BLOWN OUT that cutting it down and/or addressing it won't even be an afterthought for the next President, see everybody tomorrow afternoon at VF, safe travels to all that are going. SULLY

[71SSNova]

I am a laid off Chrysler employee, started at the Jeep plant in Toledo back in 2000.
I’ve seen both sides of the coin as my previous job of 17 years was in a non-union factory. Although there are several things I do not like about the union, I respect what they have done for everyone, including non-union employees.

1. Without the wages the union has negotiated, most non union employees would not make the wages they make. The non union employer has had to pay a decent wage to maintain decent employees.
2. Yes, there are some folks in auto plants that do little but the seniority has gotten them there and I‘ve seen those jobs in the non-union facilities as well. Seniority counts for something.
3. Most of the time, they talking about us maintenance folks. Here’s the fact on maintenance, if we’re working, then most likely the plant is not making vehicles and thereby losing major money. Maintenance is an evil necessity.
4. And let me tell you about the new assembly jobs at Jeep. I had to work one for a year and half to maintain a job. I lost 35 lbs in the first three months, I’m overweight but not that bad. I had to have a massage at least every two weeks; most everyone I know did the same. My hands hurt because of the torque guns and other jobs. If the line did not break down, out of a ten ½ hour day, we had 50 minutes off. DON”T tell me the people in an auto factory don’t earn their money.
5. As sc69sam mentioned about the pensions, a lot of money goes to retirees in the big three. The union agreed to take over the healthcare (yes, the big 3 are paying a good chunk of money for it) but when it is done, the big 3 will have some relief. BTW, it was reported that Toyota is now experiencing the same problem as the big 3 since they have been around long enough now that they are getting a good amount of retirees.
6. Workers there want their job and the mentality has changed to know quality means a job and most people feel that way. Problem is, we could only put on the parts we have and the arrogance of the salary folks is quite large.
7. It is true the big 3 pay scale is larger than the imports. There is still some truth that the unions try to create more jobs that needed. But then I’ve seen the same from the salary side, why I had three different maintenance supervisors on the same job, I’ll never know. It’s a fact that a union factory can cost almost 25% more to run than equivalent non-union factory. Too many non production union people (stewards, chief stewards, chairman, committeemen and appointed people) running around trying to justify their existence.
8. FYI, in the last contract, Sept. 2007, the union agreed to new employees starting wage of $14 and will increase to a max of $20 over a four or five year period. Also we took a wage freeze for the entire contract, 3 more years to go, we do get a yearly bonus.

Something else to think about, this is not just about the big 3. This is also about every manufacture that provides part to the auto industry. If the big 3 goes belly up, a lot of these folks do also and there will be many people collecting unemployment. Then after unemployment dries up, just imagine what will happen then. Did someone say depression?