Baldwin Motion Documentation

[GMH454]

Come on guy's ...... tell us how you really feel. Understand the feelings but wish to share a positive storey here. Time was 1986, (remember when a real phase III car went for $30,000?). Place Sydney Australia. I heard about a BM Camaro in South Australia, guy wanted $30,000 Aust. Still big money but a bargain here. A mag was going to do a photo spread and I hassled them into letting me look at all the photos. Was'nt comfortable so rang Joel. He was very helpful. Cost for digging thru the Attic was $100 back then, but for nothing, he gave me enough info that I passed on the car.
He told me that he got more calls each year than cars made (and that was in 1986)
Many years later another guy bought it without the Rosen letter of approval and wound up in a court case with the prevoius owner.
Maybe Joel has been over harrassed over the years by too many speculating opportunists

[tufrat]

The price tag of $150-$200 is high even for a Canadian show, just a thought

[Chevy454]

I found this link to a 1973 Baldwin-Motion Camaro for sale while surfing on the 2nd Gen. board. It's listed here for $67,500, but someone on the other board said they saw it for sale a few months ago (on the same page) for $80,000.

http://trader.carscene.com/detail.html?511267_01

[Mr4speed]

I had to reply to this one,I have dealt with
these cars on several occasions and Mr.Rosen on several occasions. So let me give my .02
First of all unless it was ordered through Balwin Chevrolet it is not a "TRUE" Motion car.It is a hotrodded car that is no different than if it had been modified at your local speed shop. The same goes for cars that had parts via mail order installed.
Second Mr. Rosen Wants $1000-1500 (depends on his mood) to Verify a car. I have to question his ethics because on one occasion a fake car was given a letter of "approval" when it really was a fake.(I dismiss the letters as worthless)Unless the car has tight paper work(only 2 have that I looked at)I avoid Motion cars unless I can do a history search back to the original owner or close.
This is a fairly simple process and has even turned up several goodies on some cars I have researched (various makes and models),window stickers,paperwork,original rims,and most important PICTURES. I Looked at a ss camaro(supposedly a 375 car but the original owner still had pictures from the day he took delivery and the engine picture showed the 350 sticker plain as day)!
Most previous owners are thrilled to find out their car is still around and will tell you all you want to know.
Third why is the documentation so secret?
(I have to agree on the conversion theory on this)
The ZL-1 And yenko VINs are Available.What better way to stop counterfiting than to make everything public knowlege,This alone makes me suspicious.
The right thing to do would be for Mr. Rosen to give all the paperwork to some one to compile into a data base so we could see what is what.

[ed427vette]

I'd like to reply to COPO about the price of the Yellow speedvision Dream Car Garage car. The price is a little high. But in all fairness it is a very unusual car even for BM standards. First it has the '70 454 LS7, as the Camaro model year for 69 ran into the 70 year. It was a late 69. Unusual. Also the top notch televised resto. Other then that it is no less rare than any other phase III. It is one thing to say the car is worth 200K and another to try to sell it for that price. Not too many ass's for that seat.

[ed427vette]

Now I would like to reply on the 500 or so Baldwin Chevy Motion cars. I have lived on Long Island my entire life. My family, myself and my friends have lived about 10 minutes away from the Motion shop and many of us have been into the long island racing seen when it was hopping. Now 500 cars are alot of cars. I'm not saying Joel didn't make 500, but we have not seen too many, even back when he was making them. Who could afford them?? Also I don't beleive the 500 number refers to only phase III cars. It could include just the "standard motion package". People who just wanted body mods or minor upgrades. That seems more realistic. You walk into the dealer and say, "can I have that cool looking hood on my Vette". Car goes to Motion. Thats 1 Motion/Baldwin car. Most likely it includes any conversion, Baldwin chevy or other. Also I have met and spoken to Joel on several occasions. I have a close friend who knows him very well. Joel is hot and cold. If he likes you, you're in big. I know he has charged people big dollars just to confirm or deny a car. I also know for a fact that he has done it for FREE, if he likes you. Just the way he is. My good friend says Joel has extensive records. I beleive he does. I also beleive 500 is very very optimistic, more like half are actually Baldwin cars, in my opinion. But who really knows for sure. It would be nice if Loel was more forthcoming but that will never happen. I've met him and he is not a people person. Bottom line. You need good written documentation for anything rare. Prior owner history, all the stuff everyone already knows. Makes the hobby interesting if not frustrating. Problem is big bucks are involved. Good luck.

[JoeC]

There has been a lot of wrong info published about the Motion cars. One example is a book called CHEVELLE SS RESTORATION GUIDE. This book states that 500 1967 427 Chevelles were built by Motion Performance to qualify the car for racing. I have seen one 1967 427 Motion Chevelle in a 1968 magazine but there could not have been 500 built.