Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

I am soliciting opinions on the documentation Joel Rosen provides for his cars without original paperwork. I have seen the documentation that he provides which is a short paragraph stating the originality of the car with his signature (without signature guarantee of any sort). With the prices these cars bring, how will this documentation hold up in the future?

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

I beleieve that if you donot have the original paperwork ie: original dealer bill of sale, pop or dealer invoice, original build sheet probabaly impossible to have, and you give Mr. Rosen the Vin he has records to verify that the car was purchased at Baldwin Chevrolet but in the same case the car could have been only a Motion Conversion car but he will have service records verifing that the conversion was done at Motion Performance. Then he would issue, with a fee of course an affidavit.

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

RVOR,
GOOD QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION.JOEL BELIEVES THAT ITS THE TIGHT ENFORCEMENT OF DOCUMENTATION THAT KEEPS THESE MOTION CARS SO VALUABLE.ORIGINAL PAPERWORK IS MOST DEFINITELY A PLUS .MANY CARS WERE ORDERED THRU BALDWIN CHEVROLET WITH THE MOTION PERFORMANCE OPTIONS AND WOULD SHOW ON THE DEALER INVOICE AS SO.(THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT JOEL MAY NOT HAVE THIS).IF THE CAR WAS ORDERED THRU MOTION PERFORMANCE THEIR SHOULD BE A MOTION ORDER FORM(INVOICE)I HAVE CARS WHICH WERE ORDERED THRU BOTH CHANNELS AND THE ORIGINAL PAPERWORK IS DIFFERENT.THE STATEMENT ON THE BALDWIN MOTION VERIFICATION FORM STATES THAT THE CAR IN QUESTION WAS DEALER ORDERED THRU BALDWIN CHEV/MOTION PERFORMANCE.NO MORE NO LESS.FORM DOES NOT STATE WHICH PERFORMANCE OPTIONS WERE ORDERED.JOEL USED TO FURNISH PAPERWORK ON PHASE THREE CARS IF ORDERED AS SUCH.I WOULD WATCH OUT FOR B/M CARS CLAIMING TO BE PHASE THREE'S WITHOUT SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS.

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

As these cars seem to rarely change hands, I am curious of market value opinions for a BM '69 Phase 3 Camaro, Chevelle and the '70-73 2nd Gen. Phase III Camaros. I was watching "Dream Car Garage" on Speedvision and they said a restored Phase 3 '69 Camaro was valued at $150K - $200K. To me that seemed pretty high. Opinions??

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

It's hard to believe that as one of the last living hero's of the supercar era, Rosen does not make himself more available to the public. It seems that almost all that you hear about him is that he is hard to deal with,etc,etc... If he was more open to the public I would have to think that his cars would be worth even more in the collector car market. As it stands they seem to bring strong money, but you can draw more flies with honey than vinegar. I would also think that if he ever attended a Supercar function that he would be a big draw. But again it seems that he wants his palm greased to even think about attending what other people wait all year to do for free. A little self promotion in the Motion arena and I bet his stock would climb. As it stands today, I don't really care..
BKH

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

COPO:
I agree that the $150-$200k figure is quite high, especially factoring in the general lack of cooperation, lack of documentation, and high price of the documentor. I know that a restored '70-'73 Camaro has brought $60-$65k, and that an unrestored '70-'73 has brought approx. $20k. (Both were documented before the '90's 'high dollar' craze). These figures are in line with the '69 Yenko Camaros, on both ends of the condition spectrum.

I also know that the 'documentor' has taken at least one person's money, and never delivered an answer as to the car's authenticity. I also know where he delivered a negative on a car, only to go and buy the car through an agent.

There are many who appreciate the rarity of the Motion cars in general, but would choose not to own one simply due to their appearance, (especially among us 2nd gen. guys). Most agree that the Motion cars are typical of the rude, and overindulgent '70's, and even with the resurgence of retroism, choose to keep our wallets closed and admire them from afar.

This being said, I don't see the '69 Motion cars being valued that much differently than the '70-'73' Motion cars, and certainly not in the $150-$200k range. I am sure someone might pay it at some point, but how many Otis Chandler's are there??

Any dissenters?
Marlin

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

In reference to Brians thought, I just came back from the Mopar Nats. Another musclecar legend, Mr. Norm had a booth set up selling T-shirts, models etc. He was very friendy and cooperative with the fans. He was answering their questions in rapid fashion without an outstretched hand. From what I've heard he has been going to quite a bit of shows and has a huge following. Anyway, I still think Joels figure of 500 cars is bogus. I personally think less than 100 cars were Phase III, bought through Baldwin Chevrolet. The other 400 were conversions. The owner of the '69 Chevelle received a "paragraph" letter. Why not all the original paperwork. Maybe Joel does not want the owner to see the car was only a conversion??? Which would be worth less money. Also he told the owner only 3 Chevelles have been documented. C'mon Joel where is the rest of the 500 cars? I think Joel used the Phase III car ads as a tool to sell parts. Used the mystique of having a 11.5 second car to show the buying public that they were buying from a knowledgable speed shop. I think his prime motive was not in selling cars but the parts. Somebody made a reference several years ago in a mag that back then, they could not afford a Motion car but bought some of the parts instead. I've heard this from more than one source. I know a speed shop owner who had a shop in the '60's & '70's. He said he made a minimum of 100% profit if not 2-300%. Obviously this was before the Summit/Jegs revolution.
Again, my question is: Where are all the 500 cars today? Not to rehash a worn out old saying but I think it's time someone should put up or shut up.
Whitetop

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

Here is a situation I ran into about 6 years ago with one of his "conversion" cars. A guy in GA supposedly had two 69 Baldwin/Motion Camaros and had the paperwork to back them both up. He had one of them for sale and the price was right @ $10,000 and the car needed minor restoration work. I went to look at the car for sale and at the same time he showed me the one that his dad had supposedly bought new in late 1969. The car for sale was black with a set of ugly red stripes on it front & rear. They resembled the late 68 SS Camaro stripe that went across the nose and down the sides of the fenders ending on the door. Even the one on the rear of the car was the same but applied exactly opposite of the front one with the stripe going towards the front of the car ending above the 1/4 panel louvers. This car had Motion emblems on each fender, the tailpanel, and even on the hood. There were a lot of fiberglass body panels on the car, front fenders, lower front valence, inner fenders, hood with cowl scoop with a Grumpy style scoop mounted on top of the cowl scoop, and a 1 pc decklid w/spoiler molded in. All pieces were made by Moroso I believe. Also there was a mechanical Moroso tach mounted where the ashtray should have been. The car had a bolt in roll bar and had Cragar SST wheels all the way around. The paperwork he had for the car showed all of these modifications plus the engine modifications done to an L88. The engine had the tunnel ram intake with two Holleys on top, and the valve covers were the Cal Custom ones with the SS427 emblems mounted on top of the fins. I started getting suspicious when the cowl tag showed the car to be a Hugger Orange Z-28 because at the time I thought all Motion cars were modified SS396's. I started looking at the paperwork and all of the modifications listed were on this car. Then I happened to notice a work order date of 1974 and the customer's address was in VA. This is not what I wanted to see. The guy selling the car said that this must be the paperwork for the other car and he went and got another folder with more invoices in it. After examining what was there, the other car which was white was not sold new through Baldwin Chevrolet and neither was the black one. Both were modified for customers that had purchased their cars elsewhere on the East coast. The white car was modified in September of 69 and the black car was done in 1974! The black car was brought to Joel to made into a drag car to run M/P. The owner of the car was in Virginia at the time and I later found out he raced the car for 10 years before selling it to someone in Tennessee. I even contacted Joel himself about the black car and he remembered it because of the awful looking paint job they applied to it. However he would not verify it as a legit Motion car until I sent him $1500 eventhough the paperwork was with the car. Well I passed on this car as everything about it seemed "suspicious" and the guy sold it to someone in Augusta GA later that year. I don't believe Baldwin Chevrolet ever sold 500 Motion modified cars as more should have become known by now. I have read where there were supposedly 500 67 Chevelle modified to SS427 status by Motion so that the 427 could be legalized for Nascar. Currently I have only seen one 67 Chevelle that was modified by them and it was in a magazine in 1967. This guy needs to come clean and give accurate production numbers of cars he modified and sold NEW through Baldwin Chevrolet, that is if has the records to back it up. Like "whitetop" mentions above, Mr.Norm meets and greets the public and doesn't want his pockets padded for it and he was even more well know than "Mr.Motion" to most Chevrolet & Ford fanatics. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to pass on this story.....thanks, rat pack.....

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

Kinda reminds you of the "Soup Nazi" doesn't it? "No information for you, out!!!"

whitetop

Re: Baldwin Motion Documentation
 

Come on guy's ...... tell us how you really feel. Understand the feelings but wish to share a positive storey here. Time was 1986, (remember when a real phase III car went for $30,000?). Place Sydney Australia. I heard about a BM Camaro in South Australia, guy wanted $30,000 Aust. Still big money but a bargain here. A mag was going to do a photo spread and I hassled them into letting me look at all the photos. Was'nt comfortable so rang Joel. He was very helpful. Cost for digging thru the Attic was $100 back then, but for nothing, he gave me enough info that I passed on the car.
He told me that he got more calls each year than cars made (and that was in 1986)
Many years later another guy bought it without the Rosen letter of approval and wound up in a court case with the prevoius owner.
Maybe Joel has been over harrassed over the years by too many speculating opportunists