1970 gto judge ram air IV

[Steve_Hoog]

Don, I'd like to see one of your invoices with the "memo" on it, and if you can give a little story behind it. Just for comparison.

[DaJudge]

After speaking with Jim on Friday in regards to other vehicles I asked him about the car. He knows it and as you can see by his post he states clearly as he told me that the car was not delivered from the factory with a Ram Air V. The car is no slouch it is a RAM IV Judge and even if Knafel put the V in it at the dealership that is very cool. One very important fact is that the Ram Air V engine was never certified for federal emissions standards, even back then prodcution engines had to pass federal emission standards before they could be released to production.

Why would GM risk fines from the feds to release one car even to a dealer like Knafel Pontiac? They may have been high profile back in the day and very significant in Pontiac racing history and they sold a lot of Pontiacs but not enough to cover a huge fine and risk more stringent standards placed upon them in future engine programs and certifcations for federal government compliance. Even if it was back doored (which I don't believe personally) from engineering don't you think they would want to make sure the car was a race only vehicle?

The RA V is not like the engine in a COPO Camaro which was certified and released to the public.

Who cares what pans out here, it is a Real RA IV car which is very rare by itself when compared to some high dollar Mopars and others it's low production numbers make it more rare as we all see by the high dollars they are commanding the rest of hobby thinks so too. Look at the current edition of Mopar Collectors guide they ask some high profile Mopar restorers the state of the hobby and the guy at Aloha Restorations is doing a RA III 69 TA convertible and once completed he projects the price of this vehicle to be 400K. And they tell you keep an eye out for those RA IV cars.

This thread has been fun but like every vehicle out there whether it be a COPO, Yenko, Nickey, Motion, Bobcat and rare production cars, a paper trail showing real codes and history are what makes a car with a questionable story fact not fiction.

John that RA V 69 GTO you did is very nice, It had the V top end only right? With all the right goodies up top. the gentleman that owns it now was going to trade me that car for a 70 Z28 4 speed car that had 2,800 original documented miles which he purchased. You guys do some nice work.

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[sixtiesmuscle]

Here is the dealer invoice on the Knafel "Tin Indian" Judge. Take it for what it's worth. Just as an aside, I for one, like dealer [or Hurst] converted cars as much, or more than, factory built cars.

[Steve_Hoog]

Holly cow, that is very close to the same. Did you by any chance check to see if the factory exhaust hanger bolt holes on the frame were untapped?

[sixtiesmuscle]

Nope. What would that mean?

[MotownMadman]

I would think that meant the car came equipped with or prepared for headers and no exhaust.
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

[Steve_Hoog]

Knafel said the car I'm talking about (car X) came with headers installed and no exhaust. The current owner said he can find no bolt tap marks in the frame holes on car X, which backs up Knafel's story. Those hangers used a 3/8 self tapping thread bolt that left noticable markings in the holes. If your car is like this other one, and no one altered the holes you could verify it.

I would be a little surprised though. Seems like the Knafel's would have certainly said something about your car being delivered under the same circumstances, especially since it's such a popular car.

I think this deserves a phone call to the Knafel's.

[sixtiesmuscle]

I'll ask Micky Hale to check, but, I believe it started out as just a run of the mill RA IV. According to Arlen Vanke, who wrenched on the car during its racing career, it was the white car used in the promo pictures with the pretty girl, by a lake. Knafel was able to "get a deal" on it, and, it was shipped to them after a stop in engineering. I don't know this to be fact. Just reporting what Vanke told me, and, he seems [to ME] to have a pretty good grasp on what went on in the shop back then.

[Steve_Hoog]

I find that very interesting indeed. very!!!

[442w30]

If you click here, you'll see the pic I think he's talking about. It ain't white.