Restamping blocks??????????????

[RST]

[/quote]

I do understand your point, but I don't think the "proof" you seek will ever be available for any car, unless by some chance someone took a photo of the deck stamp the day the car was delivered to compare to it today. The "proof" comes from knowledgeable people who inspect what is there and deem it to be original based on many factors. The age, condition, owner history etc are all put to the test to see if it appears to be unmolested. Restored cars are obviously the most difficult to document. Generally speaking, the worse the condition of the car, the easier it is to confrim originality.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [/quote]

Understood and agree Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] Keep up the good work.

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body">past owner history usually smoke out counterfits. Dont ever trust a protecto plate. Too many original(( boxes of them)) ones left over from out of business dealers. Theirs a guy in florida who sells them every day </div></div>

Not just protect-o-plates. Repro VIN tags are supposed to be illegal, but you can buy them all day long regardless, along with the rosette rivets.

Eyewitness testimony from back in the day is far from foolproof, either. I frequently see and hear the comment &quot;Well, it's been like this since the late 70's - early 80s, and nobody was faking them back then.&quot; I don't think that's true. I've heard numerous stories about a guy from Oklahoma who, back in the early 80s, would strip parts including VIN and trim tags off musclecars down south and bring them up here to sell. While he was here, he would locate and strip cars here and sell the pieces back in Oklahoma. Off the top of my head, over the past twenty years I've probably drug thirty or more cars out of junkyards/fields/etc. that didn't have a single identifying number left on them, anywhere. And I've seen and not bought probably three times that many.


Some of those didn't make sense in that they weren't all that desirable (a 383, column auto 68 Road Runner, for example). Others, such as the 68 Hemi Super Bee, 66 L78 Chevelle and the silver 429 CJ 4-speed 71 Mach 1? I guarantee the numbers from those cars are resting comfortably attached to base Coronet, Malibu, or Mustang in somebody's garage, probably with the &quot;numbers matching&quot; block in the cradle.


Faking musclecars has been big business for a long time, and I can't even imagine how many non-numbers and just outright fake cars there must be out there. Some are easily detectable; I'd bet money there are many that are practically invisible without a down-to-bare-metal inspection.

I finally reached the point where I approached every car like it was fake unless evidence to the contrary was overwhelming. Guilty until proven innocent. Sucks for the hobby, but what can you do about it?

[mr 707]

The ncrs in my opinion got really soft in the early 90s. all those fake trim tags(( about 1990)) were showing up because buyers wanted desireable colors and they were passing them with flying colors. Reds and blacks started showing up like crazy at every show. The block stamping really showed up in 1989 in corvettes when a magazine article came out for the 435 to go to 100,000.

[EZ Nova]

Unfortunately guys, the $$$ got in the way of the hobby/passion for these cars.

I started this thread to inform those about a very strong feeling I had that this certain &quot;69 COPO Chevelle has at least a re-stamped engine and possible trans. There are doubts on the body, but that's another issue???? I just see this as FRAUD if you knowingly re-stamp an engine and pass it off as &quot;numbers matching&quot;. I think it's no different then swapping VIN tags. If I went out and stole a COPO car, changed the tags then sold it as one of the &quot;lost&quot; COPO's, how is that any different then if I stole the same COPO, kept the body, and re-stamped the engine to one of the lost COPO cars???? Or maybe I should re-stamp my 052 block and pass it on to someone as an &quot;original&quot; '69 ZL-1 block out of a long lost car???
see my point.

NOw on these so-called experts that look at cars. Well maybe today there pretty good with internet and other ways to get data. But I will tell you a story about a past friend of mine:

Seems many years ago, (hell 15-20 years anyway) he heard and stumbled across a GT-350 COUPE. YES COUPE not a fastback. Seems the car was local to us and he thought, being a big Ford guy, he would check it out. The story I got is the car had been stilling for years. Guess it had been raced, there was some sort of issues so the owner was working on it in a shop/garage. Well something happened and the owner never got back to fixing the car. Not sure if he lost interest, died or what. So when my friend went to look at it, he said it was like a time capsule. Tools on the fender, hood up, parts on the floor and off the motor. So my friend bought it. Fully restored it and took it to the big Shelby show in the states. WELL the so called &quot;experts&quot; were all over him saying this is for &quot;authentic&quot; cars and not this made-up clone. That is till Carol heard about it. He came over to see it and all the experts were sating how Shelby never had these and that the records didn't any. Well Carol spoke up and said &quot;MAN, I haven't seen one of these in YEARS&quot;. He then went over the car and CAROL authenticated it, not the experts. Carol said they tried 6 COUPE for racing. He thought they were destroyed racing but a coupe DID make it out to customer. THIS WAS ONE OF THEM.

So it just goes to show you, you can't always know what you have or what the experts think they know. SOME of these things did happen, RARE but it did. The world would have lost this particular GT350 if it wasn't for Carol being the one to say &quot;YES it's real&quot;!!!!

[RST]

Cool story EZ Nova, I agree, there is always the exception, a lot of us on the forum have seen some interesting things over the years, some in a very good way, and some in very bad ways.

Wishing you all a fantastic weekend [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

[JayR]

Until the mid 90's, GM Canada documentation included the actual microfiche printout sheet showing your car. The sheets also showed dozens of other cars. I have one sheet with eleven L79 Chevy IIs on it. One of them is an SS in the rare, Canada only P code Plum Mist Metallic. You could virtually build a car from these sheets. VIN, colors, options, engine suffix codes, key codes....everything was there except engine casting numbers. A friend of mine actually built an L79 Chevy II 2 door sedan from one of my sheets. All he needed, but never got, was a new VIN plate and cowl tag. It still has it's original U.S. VIN and cowl tag and always has been presented as a clone, but it proved how easy it would be to build a car from these sheets and get GM Canada documentation for it. There are probably hundreds of these sheets still out there. GM Canada now requires proof of ownership before documenting a car, but that wasn't required earlier on. There are several of my cars still out there carrying documentation obtained in the 90's by giving GM Canada a VIN over the phone. Scary stuff.

Bob

[fiveforty]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In ohio theirs been some well known cases. One for sure is the judge who bought a so called 1967 427-435 vette. AS i recall its a felony to restamp a vin without law enforcement present. Adding fake documents made to look like originals doesnt look good in front of a judge. I always do a previous owner seach to see what they say about a car. the 2 lasts owners are usually on the title. You buy a picasso at auction thats represented as real and its turn out it isnt you have recourse. </div></div>

Was that the blue aluminium head car?

[Lynn]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EZ Nova</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately guys, the $$$ got in the way of the hobby/passion for these cars.</div></div>

Exactly. Same reason Picasso is forged, Renoir is forged and the $100 bill is counterfeited.

Even when someone is exposed, it seems very rare that they get prosecuted.

[mr 707]

i dont want to get to specific. Trust me alot of guys on here know all about it. You have to hold peoples feet to the fire if they want to play with the counterfit game(( fake tag and the BS)). Auctions are not a shield from fraud. A fake Picasso is a fake picasso. Get an expert opinion on a car your interested in. Or bring detail of a car to this SYC. They skewer bad cars on this site.

[bergy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The ncrs in my opinion got really soft in the early 90s. all those fake trim tags(( about 1990)) were showing up because buyers wanted desireable colors and they were passing them with flying colors. Reds and blacks started showing up like crazy at every show. The block stamping really showed up in 1989 in corvettes when a magazine article came out for the 435 to go to 100,000. </div></div>

NCRS has gotten really good at picking out these old fake tags at the national level. Cars show up...they take picture of tags....go to the computer for comparison....come back out on the field and tell the entrant that they are sorry that they can't judge his/her car. Also, their pad stamp data base is huge. Partial points credit for correct part numbers and cast dates has been a good thing. IMO - MCACN judging should adopt partial points in all classes for correct part numbers and cast dates - lets a lot more people try for gold. It's no secret on this site that very few muscle cars have all 3 original drive train components.