Restamping blocks??????????????

[SS427]

I was recently talking with a client about this very topic Sam and with regards to an LS6 Chevelle. What I told them was (other than I am about as honest as honest could be) I could very easily build an LS6 from a Malibu with full documents based on my database, experience and knowledge and pass it off as the real deal. If I can do it so can someone else. Whenever I inspect an LS6 for a customer this is what I tell them and exactly why I will not give them a certificate of authenticity, only a 10 page inspection report based solely on facts and my professional opinion. If I can fool an expert than it is only fair to say that an expert can fool me. Another reason why when I inspect a car I also try and do as much history searching on the car as I can. There is a list of restorers that one needs to potentially steer clear of due to their reputation of building clones "only for the customer and not for the sake of passing it off as a real car". Ok, whatever. I also try and research previous owners. LS6 and COPO cars that suddenly appear out of thin air with no previous history are always suspect. It is very hard to keep an LS6 or a COPO under wraps for 45 years with no one knowing about it. You are absolutely correct on anomalies in stampings based on changes made on the line. However, I know many of those and when they took place with regards to the LS6 Chevelle so again if I were going to fake a stamp I could easily add those anomalies.

[iluv69s]

I'm sure the experts here could build a clone that noone could detect...they are the ones w the databases and they know exactly what is correct....

[mr 707]

past owner history usually smoke out counterfits. Dont ever trust a protecto plate. Too many original(( boxes of them)) ones left over from out of business dealers. Theirs a guy in florida who sells them every day

[old5.0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body">past owner history usually smoke out counterfits. Dont ever trust a protecto plate. Too many original(( boxes of them)) ones left over from out of business dealers. Theirs a guy in florida who sells them every day </div></div>

Not just protect-o-plates. Repro VIN tags are supposed to be illegal, but you can buy them all day long regardless, along with the rosette rivets.

Eyewitness testimony from back in the day is far from foolproof, either. I frequently see and hear the comment &quot;Well, it's been like this since the late 70's - early 80s, and nobody was faking them back then.&quot; I don't think that's true. I've heard numerous stories about a guy from Oklahoma who, back in the early 80s, would strip parts including VIN and trim tags off musclecars down south and bring them up here to sell. While he was here, he would locate and strip cars here and sell the pieces back in Oklahoma. Off the top of my head, over the past twenty years I've probably drug thirty or more cars out of junkyards/fields/etc. that didn't have a single identifying number left on them, anywhere. And I've seen and not bought probably three times that many.


Some of those didn't make sense in that they weren't all that desirable (a 383, column auto 68 Road Runner, for example). Others, such as the 68 Hemi Super Bee, 66 L78 Chevelle and the silver 429 CJ 4-speed 71 Mach 1? I guarantee the numbers from those cars are resting comfortably attached to base Coronet, Malibu, or Mustang in somebody's garage, probably with the &quot;numbers matching&quot; block in the cradle.


Faking musclecars has been big business for a long time, and I can't even imagine how many non-numbers and just outright fake cars there must be out there. Some are easily detectable; I'd bet money there are many that are practically invisible without a down-to-bare-metal inspection.

I finally reached the point where I approached every car like it was fake unless evidence to the contrary was overwhelming. Guilty until proven innocent. Sucks for the hobby, but what can you do about it?

[mr 707]

The ncrs in my opinion got really soft in the early 90s. all those fake trim tags(( about 1990)) were showing up because buyers wanted desireable colors and they were passing them with flying colors. Reds and blacks started showing up like crazy at every show. The block stamping really showed up in 1989 in corvettes when a magazine article came out for the 435 to go to 100,000.

[bergy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The ncrs in my opinion got really soft in the early 90s. all those fake trim tags(( about 1990)) were showing up because buyers wanted desireable colors and they were passing them with flying colors. Reds and blacks started showing up like crazy at every show. The block stamping really showed up in 1989 in corvettes when a magazine article came out for the 435 to go to 100,000. </div></div>

NCRS has gotten really good at picking out these old fake tags at the national level. Cars show up...they take picture of tags....go to the computer for comparison....come back out on the field and tell the entrant that they are sorry that they can't judge his/her car. Also, their pad stamp data base is huge. Partial points credit for correct part numbers and cast dates has been a good thing. IMO - MCACN judging should adopt partial points in all classes for correct part numbers and cast dates - lets a lot more people try for gold. It's no secret on this site that very few muscle cars have all 3 original drive train components.

[Salvatore]

I don't know Bruce, Should they lower the standards?
Is it that important for people to get &quot;gold&quot;?
Its either original, born with or not.

Very hard!!! to find true, all original, assembly line cars with all their limbs intacted.
Makes those cars worth that much more.

[bashton]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know Bruce, Should they lower the standards?
Is it that important for people to get &quot;gold&quot;?
Its either original, born with or not.

Very hard!!! to find true, all original, assembly line cars with all their limbs intacted.
Makes those cars worth that much more. </div></div>

In our opinion, absolutely not. We would rather be known as the &quot;tough&quot; guys than the ones that hand out awards for sub-par cars.

Bashton

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bashton</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know Bruce, Should they lower the standards?
Is it that important for people to get &quot;gold&quot;?
Its either original, born with or not.

Very hard!!! to find true, all original, assembly line cars with all their limbs intacted.
Makes those cars worth that much more. </div></div>

In our opinion, absolutely not. We would rather be known as the &quot;tough&quot; guys than the ones that hand out awards for sub-par cars.

Bashton </div></div>

You're doing it the right way Bob. Lowering the standards will make a lot of people happier for a while but soon after the value of the award will be meaningless. Organizations that just want everyone to go home with a trophy should just put one in each goodie bag.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif[/img]

[bashton]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mr 707</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The ncrs in my opinion got really soft in the early 90s. all those fake trim tags(( about 1990)) were showing up because buyers wanted desireable colors and they were passing them with flying colors. Reds and blacks started showing up like crazy at every show. The block stamping really showed up in 1989 in corvettes when a magazine article came out for the 435 to go to 100,000. </div></div>

NCRS has gotten really good at picking out these old fake tags at the national level. Cars show up...they take picture of tags....go to the computer for comparison....come back out on the field and tell the entrant that they are sorry that they can't judge his/her car. Also, their pad stamp data base is huge. Partial points credit for correct part numbers and cast dates has been a good thing. IMO - MCACN judging should adopt partial points in all classes for correct part numbers and cast dates - lets a lot more people try for gold. It's no secret on this site that very few muscle cars have all 3 original drive train components. </div></div>

Bergy, that has been our policy since inception. We also do not judge any cars that we find to have reproduction tags under any circumstances.

Your point is also why we offer Day2 Concours judging, which allows <span style="font-style: italic">period correct</span> but non numbers matching
parts, which to date I believe is a MCACN exclusive.

Bashton