Judges

[Steve_Hoog]

I only have some goodies on the 71, if anyone has and would share the 70 motor options for the GT37 it would be cool.

71 GT37 availabilities

[442w30]

Where did you get the information you could order a GTO gutted? Have you seen one before?

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>As for the RAIV not keeping with a RAIII? Considering the RAIV round port heads, aluminum intake, and especially the RAIV cam and valvetrain, how on earth would a RAIII outrun a RAIV? So Pontiac made a mistake developing all of these special parts? By that logic, an 70 LS5 Chevelle should beat an 70 LS6 Chevelle, a 73 Trans Am 455 should beat a 73 SD455 Trans Am, a 70 442 should beat a 70 442 W-30, and a 70 GS455 should beat a 70 GS Stage 1. </pre><hr />

If you're going to make a point, you should compare apples and apples. My point was that the Tempest tested in 1970 very well could have been faster than a RAIV GTO. To make your arguement sound, you must compare a 455 Special with a GS Stage 1 . . . and we know for sure there were no Specials made with the 455.

[gtaa9]

I'm just quoting what the book said this is'nt my opinion.You mentioned that opinions verses fact gets blurred when people are passionate about their cars.I've never ever seen a GT-37 in the flesh let alone own one.So I dont know were your going off when you say I'm passionate about my car???I own a 1970 GTO not a GT-37.

[StealthBird]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just quoting what the book said this is'nt my opinion.You mentioned that opinions verses fact gets blurred when people are passionate about their cars.I've never ever seen a GT-37 in the flesh let alone own one.So I dont know were your going off when you say I'm passionate about my car???I own a 1970 GTO not a GT-37.

[/ QUOTE ]

gtaa9, I wasn't referring to you about "being passionate" about your car. I was referring to others (perhaps John Sawruk) who tend to exaggerate things because they are passionate about the cars they love. That's ok, we all have our favorites. But we also must face reality. An original, stock 67 GTO, is not going to outrun a 70 Hemi Cuda. Heck, if you look hard enough, one may find a website stating that a Pontiac 301 Turbo was a great engine, and could easily run with an old GTO if the "301 just had the right gears, and was tuned properly".

As for comparing apples to apples, this is exactly what I did. A 70 GTO 400 RAIII could not, and would not, outrun a 70 RAIV GTO. Same car, same body, same options. The car with more power wins. You can slice and dice, argue about traction, driver skill, and which way the wind was blowing, but the fact remains the RAIV was a stronger engine than the RAIII.

And the GT-37 was a step down from the RAIII, RAIV, and 455. It had a standard 350 hp GTO engine. Lighter in weight than a GTO? Maybe by about 20-30 lbs (rubber floor mats verses carpeting, maybe 10 lbs there). Nowhere near enough to make up for the mechanical improvements set into the RAIII, let alone the RAIV.

The GT-37 wasn't some mythical warrior that came out of left field with some mysterious prototype Pontiac engine. They were cheap alternatives to GTO's, nothing more, nothing less. They could not outrun a RAIV GTO.

That being said, I happen to like GT-37's and T-37's a great deal. I always rooted for the plain brown wrapper cars.

[gtaa9]

Thats alright but it seems that your getting upset because someone has a differant opinion .I know for a fact that a RAlV GTO or Judge is a mid to hight 13 second car as for the GT-37 I dont have a clue.I dont know alot about the GT-37 cars but I read some were that it was 200-300lbs. lighter than the GTO???Wheather its true or not is anybodys guess.

[442w30]

Hi, Stealthbird, your comparison is still not accurate.

The comparison is a (mythical) RAIII Tempest vs. a RAIV GTO. Obviously, if they were both GTOs, we know which one would win.

And if you have seen the Pure Stock races, you'd see that a '70 400 GT-37 can give many cars fits - especially RAIV GTOs. But, alas, that's a poor example because there are many dynamics, including drivers and dexterity under the hood, that affect this outcome.

[StealthBird]

gtaa9, I'm not getting upset, just trying to get the facts straight. I happen to love the GT-37 and T-37 cars.

Diego, my comments were directed at an earlier statement that said that a 70 Tempest 400 (for arguements sake, let's make it a RAIII) could outright defeat a 70 RAIV GTO. I just don't see how this is possible. Tempest and GTO, same car, same suspension, same sheet metal, but vastly different engines. The GT-37 and T-37 may have been a little lighter than the GTO (front numper weight), but not enough to make up for the differences in their engines (plus the Ram Air setup on the GTO). The shipping weight(s) of the 70 Lemans and Tempest were indeed about 300 lbs. less than a 70 GTO, but these weights are for base models. On the GTO, that means a 400 cube engine. On the Lemans and Tempest, that means an 250 cube L6. I believe that's where a lot of misunderstanding came from when people have discussed the GT-37 and T-37 cars. With the 400 cube engine in the Tempest, I find it difficult to believe that we could make a 70 Tempest 300 lbs. lighter than a 70 GTO. That's a heck of a lot of weight to take out!

Yes, the 70 GT-37 has definately given people fits at the Pure Stocks.

I think my comparison was legit, but I think I understand that you feel the GS455 and GS Stage 1 would not be a valid comparison because both cars were GS's. Maybe a Cutlass SX 455 4-barrel and a 442 W30 would be a better comparison with the Tempest 400 and RAIV GTO.

[Steve_Hoog]

442w30

With the right connections you could get a car gutted, any car.

But the GT-37/T-37 was a some what gutted vehicle without pulling strings.

So both view points would be correct.

[442w30]

Stealthbird, I think you need to give more credence to the Tempest's weight. Let's use T-37s and GTOs as an example. We know both, when equipped with the 455HO, are not in the same league. The latter is a fast car, and the former is a Hemi killer!

Steve, "with the right connections" is an idea that has too much weight. What do you know from 1970 that was built "with the right connections"? At best it's an anomoly.

[Steve_Hoog]

That's an easy one.

Michael Guarise's (sixtiesmuscle) Tin Indian 1970 Judge was built minus dum dum, as reported by Micky Hale (another board member)who is restoring the car.

That good enough to satisfy you?