69 Camaro Body in the Crate

[tom406]

Great issue of HOT ROD. I love it when it actually takes longer than 5 minutes to blow through an issue. CAR CRAFT and ROD AND CUSTOM have been backsliding lately, though, IMO.

A few points:

1. As for passing one off as a real car, I think BelAir's got it right. Soon people will post the differences. Besides the size of the panels and consolidation of some, the size and stamping performance of the presses is much different between GM 1969 and Taiwan 2005. I'm sure they've tried to hide the differences, but they should be there with some digging.

2. The VIN# and titling issues are going to depend on the state you live in and who you are cozy with at the DMV. It's really not going to be any different than what the street rodders with repop '29/'32/'34/'37/'39/'40 Fords are going through. HOT ROD talks about some of the state to state variations. Some will be done with titles of parts cars. Some will be pulled out of thin air with fresh Alabama titles or the like (could identity theft of cars become a problem?). Some will be titled as 2005 or 2006 homebuilts. It will run the gamut, based upon state laws and peoples creativity.

3. Next time you're at a street rod meet, ask a few guys where their VIN number is. You'll be shocked at how many of those pre-'49 hot rods have NO DISCERNIBLE VIN NUMBER anywhere on them. Some of the Fords only had the VIN on the frame (which is defaced or lost when the new V8 and IFS is put in, or lost entirely when an aftermarket frame is built) Others have tags spot welded to the cowl or door pillar which is lost when the body is dipped or removed for painting and never put back on. I can't tell you how many cars I've appraised, cars with years of work and $30 to 100K invested in them, that have absolutely no ID marks relating them to the title that supposedly binds them to the owner. I gently remind these guys that if the car is stolen and recovered, just how are the police supposed to know its theirs? I also pass on writing anything up for them until they get the issue sorted out.

4. Finally, I'm a big '69 Camaro fan and a general fan of the Pro Touring movement, when executed properly. But that green "HOT ROD 1" car is one of the ugliest '69's I've seen. After all that work I'd be upset with the result. Visually, nothing on that car works for me-the color, the stripes, the green grill surround, the satin wheels-nothing. I know they wanted something that would stand out in the sea of red cars, but man, that just isn't the way.

[SamLBInj]

[ QUOTE ]

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;


[/ QUOTE ]
This one kinda covers a pretty broad range of things...Where do you draw the line on "reasonably"

[Pantera]

Yes in a way you do wind up with a almost new "OLD CAR" but it is still the original car that it started life as. As such it is entitled to have the factory vin # affixed.

What I have been instructed by Auto Thief dectives here you can replace just about every part of a car but the doo piller post/dash that the vin # is/was originally attached to. I was cautioned to not destroy the firewall and or dash/door post where the hidden vin and the visable vin # was attached or I would have to file for a rebuilt state assigned vin # and would not be allowed to re-affix the original vin on to any aftermarket (IE:Not the original)body panel.

Now back to the subject of a totally new body that is not even manfactured in the US. What would you do if a few years after you built up a car and had it on the road and the feds captured it and would not release it, till you summited the crash and other federaly required documents since they deemed it a NEW CAR because the majority of it was built in 2005??? I would hate to have my money tied up in that. Someone could loose big time. Imagne having to watch it go into a auto crusher because you could not comply ($$$$)with thier demands.

I have been down this road in the past and have lost a nice 69 Z-28 because it was previously stolen and the vin # was changed. Could not get it back and the cops gave it to the last owner. We had a nice 65 vette that we sold to Bill Moch a collector near here and he found the frame # did not match the vin that had been changed and the cops kept that one too because it was a stolen car. I realize this is not the same thing as doing this to a legal car but trust me you have no idea just how big a hassle it can be to deal with local law enforcment sometimes. I was a used car dealer at the time and inocently bought these cars but I still lost on the deal.

Trust me, They don't have to do it your way and they and the feds have some funny ways of looking at these kind of deals.

I have a 60k mi 84 vette setting in the middle of my shop right now that was bought by a banker and he chishled the vin off and stole another car and put the vin # on it. Then he got caught driving it and went to jail. I was cleared of any involvment in the deal but they would not let me have the original vin # off the stolen car so I could replace it on my legal car. I was declaired the righfull owner of the car but to put it back on the street I will have to file for a state assigned Vin #. I knew that, back when I got the car and was planing on building a very radical custom car so the original vin would have not been a detriment. It just took the best part of a year for it to get cleared for me and I gave up on the project. IF anybody wants it for $2500 contact me. It is hit in front.

Pantera

[amuseme]

Let's face it, the only parts of a car that I.D. it as "that car" are the areas where the VIN itself is stamped. Cut those out and weld them into the corresponding areas on a better body and, bodaboom-bodabing, instant rust-free survivor. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you,but you haven't technically removed the VIN, since it's still connected to the "car". What's your definition of "car" or "automobile"?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's face it, the only parts of a car that I.D. it as "that car" are the areas where the VIN itself is stamped. Cut those out and weld them into the corresponding areas on a better body and, bodaboom-bodabing, instant rust-free survivor. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you,but you haven't technically removed the VIN, since it's still connected to the "car". What's your definition of "car" or "automobile"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your described procedure would absolutely be a felony under federal law. Not even a maybe. Eventually someone would find out, and if the info got to an interested law enforcement type, you would lose the car, it would be confiscated and if you were the person who did the switching you would be prosecuted as well. I am telling you this from a "legal beagle" standpoint, having worked on some of these types of cases.

[Mark_C]

I would assume that's only true if you transfer those peices of sheetmetal to another "vehicle". Since by definition these body tubs are not vehicles in themselves, but "passenger motor vehicle equipment" by the referenced code above.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I would assume that's only true if you transfer those peices of sheetmetal to another "vehicle". Since by definition these body tubs are not vehicles in themselves, but "passenger motor vehicle equipment" by the referenced code above.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont mean to sound pompous on this subject matter but legally, I know what I'm talking about. The simple statutory definitions you cite do not hold any weight as precedent. You may reasonably believe that a common sense interpretation of them would support your position but unfortunately it does not. Case law is what the Court would have to base their opinion upon. And this is a new, unexplored, legal territory. Someone is going to have to be the "test case guniea pig" on this matter. I would not want to be the person who rivets their old VIN and firewall tag on one of these bodies and then tries to slip it through their local motor vehicle inspection station. You're bound to run into an inspector who knows about these new replacement bodies and then seizes the car as evidence of VIN tampering. Until some revision to the existing Federal Stautes is created, I think the only way to register one of them properly would be to apply for a state issued VIN number, just like the street rod builders do.

Then again, that's just my completely unbiased, semi-official, $500 an hour, legal opinion. Now where do I send my bill to?

[ANDY M]

Charley? Belair?

[olredalert]

NJSteve,

-------I can see some of what you are saying, but what inspector is going to look at your new body if you already own and have titled to you the old one? Heck, if the old rust-bucket is even plated how will anyone know to look. I dont think doing this kind of a switch is of interest to me but I cant see, under my criteria, where the problem would be, at least here in MI.!!!............Bill S

[njsteve]

Through my travels I have met quite a few motor state vehicle managers, employees, inspectors, etc. They are briefed on new issues relating to motor vehicle fraud quite frequently. They are aware of these new bodies and I imagine they are waiting for the first one to show up with a 1969 VIN tag attached to it, and then they'll have to deal with it in person. I just wouldn't want to be the guy who just sunk $50K into a repro-bodied car that might just get confiscated while the whole process gets sorted out through the courts.

Hey, when do I get my own , , sign? It can read "Damn Lawyers Suck"