GMMG CAR ON EBAY

[matt murphy]

Motown,

I now fully understand Shill Bidding, and thanks for your response. It was wrong for Mike Kratchmer to do what he did, but I believe they did it because of the way Mike was treated last week. Mike appologised last week to everyone here, and told me he was sorry for having fun, when people here didn't understand his humor, and he didn't understand the rules of this site. I did offer Mike $16,500 for his car the other day before he even thought of Ebay. I know Mike Kratchmer would like to have one of our cars, but can't afford the 50K to 100K that some of them are going for. A few people around Atlanta tried to get Mike to sell it to them for around 20K, if Mike and I would write something about the car that wasn't true so they could remarket the car at a much higher price. Mike said that he was going to put the car on Ebay to give everyone an equal opportunity to purchase it first hand. If my offer was his only bid, at $16,500, he probably would have sold it to me, but would have wanted something thrown in to help him out. That is NOT shill bidding as I see it, or you described it.

Let me ask you this . . . If say Charlie Lillard decides to sell his '69 Berger ZL1 and a few of his friends hear that he is interested in selling it . . . and they offer him 300K for it and he says, No way, it is easily worth much more than that . . . and he decides to put it on Ebay to give everyone an equal opportunity to bid on it, and he sets the reserve at 350K . . . and you, as his friend, made him that 300K offer, then saw it on Ebay . . . and with no bids made . . . you made that same 300K offer as the starting bid ?? . . . and if a few other friends of Charlies, of which around here he has many . . . make him an offer at 305K and then 310K . . . under the reserve or not . . . does that imply that you guys are Shill Bidding to help Charlie get closer to the 350K he wants . . . [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

I think the mistake people made here is that they jumped to the Shill Bidding conclusion before the Ebay ad ran its course. I agree with yours and Robs and others insinuation of the facts at hand, that it could have looked like Shill Bidding . . . but, some people acted against these guys and me when they saw what they assumed was a scam. I can't blame those for thinking that, from your definition of Shill Bidding, it didn't look too straight. Again, both Kratchmer and I made one bid on Ebay to Mike and his car for sale . . . I can't explain why Ebay shows MLK327GA as having 3 bids. I'm not aware of how one person could make three bids like it shows, maybe someone can help me here. I have bought two or three things off Ebay and bidded on maybe two others. I am not an avid Ebayer like you Matt and others, I got my lesson today.

[MotownMadman]

Matt,
In a case like that with Charlies car the thing to do to insure there is no assumption of foul play would be for the prospective buyer friend of Charlie to let the auction run its course as he stated he wanted in an effort to achieve maximum profit. If the auction price goes above what the friend is willing to pay then so be it. However, near the end of the auction the price has not met what the friend is willing to pay then during the last several minutes the friend can place the maximum bid he is willing to pay, if he wins the auction so be it. If someone else outbids also at the last minute, well the friend had the opportunity to bid more. In this case if the friend wins the auction with his max bid it doesnt have the appearence of foul play as the friend was not bidding through the auction giving the appearence of driving up the price. I dont understand why everyone dosent wait until just prior to auction close anyway, that would stop multiple bidders who keep trying to out do each other therefore driving up the cost. Make a last minute bid for the max you will pay and let the computer do the bidding for you at the last moment. You either win or not, and if not you were not tricked into the competetive game which could cause you to regret your purchase later.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]
P.S. Next time you want to list a car or anything on Ebay let me handle it for you to keep the hassle from your life.

[Stuart Adams]

Hey MO, we have traded THONGS for SNOWBIRDS in Havasu. If anyone has questions about the details and workings of ebay see MO, he knows. Lets move on, the car sounds fun and is at a reasonable price despite what has regretfully gone on.

[MotownMadman]

Stuart,
So what are you saying, the snowbirds from the north dont wear thongs? Or are you puzzled by brains to go with the bodies? I am sure if you wander down to the mud shark you can find a few stray thongs! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

[bbdon]

Matt, My name is Don Coffman. I sell on eBay with the user name Novadon. I guess I took this personally because this is one of the few cars discussed here that I might actually be able to afford, I toyed with the idea of bidding myself. Not seriously, but enough to linger on the auction and this thread for a while.
The situation that you have described hypotheticly is shill bidding and it is about the same to me as stealing from the other bidders. With respect to the car in question, you know the reserve and bid under that number intentionally? Just to bring the bidding up to where you thought is should be? Am I correct? The bid was clearly made with the intention of helping the auction price go higher, not to actually buy the car.
If you, as an experienced businessman cannot see the obvious ethical problem that is created here, I'm speechless, I don't know how to help. I have only had very basic business conduct study from work, but I know this is not right.

[CWilliams]

Matt-
When you reply to my last email I sent (from home) please update me on the "white book". I want one.

Thanks-

[sixtiesmuscle]

Much of what has been discussed here has been a matter of perception and interpretation. Like so many subjects that revolve around these types of arguments, there will always be two sides. Both can be right, and, both can be wrong, to certain degrees. This auction could [and should have] been handled differently, but, it seems the parties have apologized for any perceived deception, so, can't we get in the spirit of the season and cut them a little slack?

There is a situation in which I have found myself relating to a friend's car on Ebay. I knew his asking price, but, not his reserve. I did not want to pay that price, but, I did want to buy the car. Is it unethical for me to bid on this car to test the reserve, as well as, to try to discourage other bidders? I don't think so. As long as there is no collusion, and that's the key, I can bid anyway I want to in order to try to win that auction. Sometimes waiting until the very end works, but, sometimes you lose that way too. The whole auction concept is a game of strategies. I frankly don't buy the idea that other bidders can be "tricked" into bidding more than they "can afford". Then they shouldn't be bidding. Sometimes you get a great deal, and, sometimes you pay too much, but, it's always YOU who hits that submit bid button. If it's more than you want to spend, don't bid.

If this auction had a starting bid of 21.5, or, a "Buy it Now" near that, would we even be having this discussion? Again, should it have been handled in another fashion? Sure, but, let's not make it a death penalty case.

[Jeff H]

Personally, I don't see it as shill bidding if you really are looking to buy something and have the money and place a bid for the amount you're willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter if it's a friend or complete stranger. The problem arises when you know what the reserve is and know that you bid won't meet the reserve. Most people decide to not even bother placing a bid. There's nothing wrong with placing a bid when you know it won't meet the reserve. What happens if the seller decides he needs to move it now and drops the reserve? You could suddenly become the high bidder and it's completely legit. There's definitely shill bidding going on with Ebay, but regardless of that, you have to decide what you're willing to pay for something and place your bid and stick to it. Don't base the items value on what other people bid.

[jg95z28]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't see it as shill bidding if you really are looking to buy something and have the money and place a bid for the amount you're willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter if it's a friend or complete stranger. The problem arises when you know what the reserve is and know that you bid won't meet the reserve.

[/ QUOTE ]Jeff, that is exactly what shill bidding is. You know the seller, you know the reserve, you know your bid will raise the price, however you aren't on the hook to buy the item because you're under the reserve price.

I actually have less of a problem with this type of action even though it is specifically considered a no-no by ebay. The bigger problem is two friends come on a messageboard and talk up a car that another friend is selling and pretend like they don't know who each other is or all the details. No one came clean until Aloha Jeff caught them red handed. That to me is bad business and can be potentially damaging to a company like GMMG.

These guys are actually lucky someone doesn't come along and creates a dummy account and bids up the price past the reserve. Why? Because if the bid goes past the reserve and the phoney-winning bidder neglects payment, the seller will still be responsible for the ebay fees on the selling price. (You'll have a rough time getting a credit back from ebay.) I've seen this happen time and time again on smaller items, so I'm sure it happens on their bigger auctions as well. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img]

[Jeff H]

Jeff, I disagree with you on that being shill bidding. If you are honestly interested in the item and place a bid of what you are willing to pay for it, then that is totally legit even if your bid doesn't meet the reserve. If you are placing a bid on an item and know that your bid is below the reserve and you have no intention of ever buying the item, then that is shill bidding. I've placed bids on stuff knowing what the reserve was and that I wasn't willing to pay that much so I put in the amount I was willing to pay. The item didn't meet the reserve and I was the high bidder. The seller contacted me and sold the item to me at my price. I'm not defending anyone, but I think people are looking at shill bidding the wrong way. It's obvious that it happens on Ebay and when it does, you move on to another item.