1970 Ls6 Convertible

[yountto]

So do i get a finders fee for first posting it here and reminding you???!...I do agree with you on prices and wasnt specifically talking of you because you are the high bidder[again,after the bid retraction] ,the only point i disagree on is that i cannot personally call an Ls6 an origial engine car[with OR without paperwork],just because a chevelle judge says so....even the NCRS judges will certify a car 100 points yet have a disclaimer that says even though the car is judged top flight, the ncrs makes no guarantee as to authenticity,because quite frankly how can they look at a car 30 years after the fact and be certain???...I have not tried to discredit the car in any way because i havent seen it....Its just that now that site members bid on it,everyone is quick to call an undocumented car the real deal by the bidder list...

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not tried to discredit the car in any way because i havent seen it.

[/ QUOTE ] Interesting point Yountto...if you saw it and agreed the numbers added up and looked undisturbed,what would your opinion on it be since it still wouldn't have paperwork ?....

[yountto]

Personally i believe if a car has a factory GM buildsheet or GM canada paperwork,or in the case of the ZL1s the vins are known,i would verify the car is surely legit....other than that POPs,owner history,and peoples opinions just dont count when you are in 200k 300k land[or less for that matter].....What you are saying is if you take a real L78 camaro,buy a virgin dated block and a set of 842s and do nothing else but add these two items, you have a real L89 because it looks to be one????

[Belair62]

I tend to agree but buildsheets are suspect too...but my question was what you would say about this car if you were able to personally look at it and found that it looked legit ??? Would you deem it to be as valuable as a car with doc's being it is such a low production car ?

[yountto]

There is absolutely NO way any car without docs is as legitimate as one with, you have to be kidding....Ive only questioned that the parameters of what is needed for a car to be "documented" have been altered and watered down to fit a given situation and or individual[s] ...One can make an educated assumption[note "assumption"] that a car is real based on a combination of originality,owners,and condition,but nothing with certainty without paperwork. The problem is buying a car with no docs is like buying a Babe Ruth baseball documented by a handwriting expert,you really hope its his signature but it bothers you that maybe the Babe didnt sign it...I give alot of credit to the seller for not having a 200.00 POP in this particular case ,its going to a new home so good luck to the buyer also

Chuck's opinions are both well stated and well respected in my opinion...I agree 100% with him concerning the current prices and what has become "acceptable" in this hobby. I know Chris and while I value his opinion, I'm not ready to risk buying a car for that kind of cash without firm factory paperwork. Buildsheets or GM Canada paperwork in my opinion are the BEST source of factory documentation, as they are directly from the factory. I think the days of guys buying a car with a POP and thinking it is original, based solely on that are long gone. I don't think anyone is navie to think buildsheets can't be faked, however there are a lot of subtle things that verify a sheet as being authentic. With POP's there isn't this "safeguard," therefore a car with solely a POP can't be worth in my mind what a buildsheet car is worth, and in my mind it doesn't matter whether the car is a COPO or a LS6. I do applaud the seller for not having a POP made as well. Just because a car is bought by someone here doesn't mean it is real or correct, so I completely disagree with the idea that this board or 1 person can "make or break" a car. As Chuck pointed out, doing your homework and researching a car, can and will substantiate or discredit paperwork and a car.

Just as a side bar to this topic...ever notice how many people frown upon green cars, yet when looking at what was "popular" green and "earth tones," were the rage in the late '60's and early '70's. I would bet if someone took a statistical sample green would account for a large percentage of sales. I do hope that whoever ends up with the car appreciates it, and it is proven to be legit as is expected.

[Belair62]

Good civil perspectives .....Thanks. Greg, color will always be in the eye of the beholder and his checkbook....

[Jeff H]

You should see the green in my house! Dark, dark green kitchen cabinets, green kitchen sink, green stovetop, green oven, green fridge, green bathroom sink, green bathtub. Thank god my car is Hugger Orange! But my first Camaro was Rally Green. As for paperwork, I know of a 10K mile, original owner 69 Z28 Rally Green that is in mint condition. He doesn't have a clue where any paperwork is for the car. I know the car is exactly what he says. I would pay more for that car than for a car with so called documentation since any documentation can be faked nowadays. So documentation is really more of comfort factor when buying a vehicle. If you think the paperwork has been faked, then you won't buy the car. If it looks legit, you're more comfortable buying the car, but there are still no gaurantees. I don't care if it's POP, window sticker, buildsheet or GM of Canada docs, it can all be faked. The GM of Canada is the safest because you can still call them with the VIN and verify that the car is legit. It still doesn't mean the engine hasn't been restamped or altered. That's why the records that Chevrolet has that Jim M's group is working on is so valuable. More comfort knowing that the car is legit.

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is navie to think buildsheets can't be faked, however there are a lot of subtle things that verify a sheet as being authentic.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could say the same thing about the car itself!

True, and I'm certainly not saying I've not owned some cars that I thought were completely legit and that had nothing more than title searches. However I didn't pay what the cars are "worth" today, and when sold they weren't sold for top dollar either. I think there are a lot cars without factory docs that are legit, but if I'm looking at the "big picture," I'm concerned about possible re-sale (never know when I might have to sell..)so IMO factory docs are the only way to go. Yes buildsheets can be faked, but if you educate yourself and research what original docs look like, you won't get burned..The materials to fake them aren't available (the actual sheets are distinct plant to plant) and the way the different factories coded the options and the fonts they used are unique plant to plant..With POP's the materials and "look" are universal and they have been avaiable for sometime..A POP "made" 15 years ago, can look aged and will appear original. Since there isn't any "special" wording, unique paper or type font, I personally don't think they can be used to validate a car. They are nice to have, and in conjunction with other docs can further lend credulence the car is legit, BUT they don't validate by themselves. Same with other non-factory docs...Just my opinion..