Stripe Delete JL8 Z28

[William]

I have been in the hobby 41 years, virtually all of it centered on the ’69 Camaro. The “black Z/28 grille” yarn has been out there since the cars were new. If you flip through late ‘70s car mags it won’t take long to find a non-RS ’69 Z/28 pictured with a black grille. At the time many believed they were built that way. Many people also believed you could order one with headers and a cross-ram. It took years to dispel these myths; in many ways Jerry’s book was the catalyst. His books remain the best source of Camaro info available and have stood the test of time.

When the CRG was formed 18 years ago we had to deal with anomalies in production. Thus the phrase “normative practice” was developed.

http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#Normative

I suggest you carefully read the last paragraph. Just because the car has a black grille does not mean it was built with it. Talking to previous owners is a good place to start but oral history really isn’t proof. The car could have been damaged in transit or shortly thereafter and repaired with a black grille. 47 years is a long time to remember an insignificant detail and it is entirely possible even the original owner was not aware of it. It’s also possible he painted it.

If it was in fact built that way it was an error. Standard practice was a silver grille; about 16,000 non-RS Z/28s were built with one.

Good luck in your research.

[cook_dw]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img]

Enjoy what you have and/or restore it as you find/research &quot;your&quot; car to be. PLEASE don't do it just to conform to a standard. Cars have a history &amp; history is not always set in stone...Remember when they never made a 427 Camaro/Chevelle...? The learning and research should never end.


BIG </div></div>



x1000

[Tracker1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: William</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been in the hobby 41 years, virtually all of it centered on the ’69 Camaro. The “black Z/28 grille” yarn has been out there since the cars were new. If you flip through late ‘70s car mags it won’t take long to find a non-RS ’69 Z/28 pictured with a black grille. At the time many believed they were built that way. Many people also believed you could order one with headers and a cross-ram. It took years to dispel these myths; in many ways Jerry’s book was the catalyst. His books remain the best source of Camaro info available and have stood the test of time.

When the CRG was formed 18 years ago we had to deal with anomalies in production. Thus the phrase “normative practice” was developed.

http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#Normative

I suggest you carefully read the last paragraph. Just because the car has a black grille does not mean it was built with it. Talking to previous owners is a good place to start but oral history really isn’t proof. The car could have been damaged in transit or shortly thereafter and repaired with a black grille. 47 years is a long time to remember an insignificant detail and it is entirely possible even the original owner was not aware of it. It’s also possible he painted it.

If it was in fact built that way it was an error. Standard practice was a silver grille; about 16,000 non-RS Z/28s were built with one.

Good luck in your research.


</div></div>

Hopefully we can give William the last word on this as he pretty much covered it. I would hate to see our thread here on such a significant Z devolve into an insignificant elongated grille discussion. More pics and memories, Tom, please. Thank you....

[tom406]

Not '69 Camaro specific but a similar anecdote. I recently looked at an original owner '70 Challenger RT/SE 440 car, still in the hands of the original owners. It doesn't have any 440 emblems on the hood, and they've never painted it. Aha! a factory mistake!? Well, as we looked closer, you could see evidence that the hood had been resprayed. Upon asking the owners about what they knew, it turns out it was a late 1970 dealer swap car (they wanted a '70 but too late to order) and it apparently suffered hood damage in transit or while at the first dealer (or maybe stolen? that definitely happened back in the day) and the body shop apparently was apparently too lazy to drill holes and transfer the emblems over. Just an example of something happening between the factory and the original owner.

[Mr70]

And a factory mistake is just that,a mistake from what the majority of those cars received.

[Zman1969]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Hopefully we can give William the last word on this as he pretty much covered it. I would hate to see our thread here on such a significant Z devolve into an insignificant elongated grille discussion. More pics and memories, Tom, please. Thank you.... </div></div>

IMO there are way too many nitpic threads out there, lets see more of the car and enjoy them! I do because of all the options- so few were identicle

[EZ Nova]

It could have happened with the black grill? Maybe the factory made the mistake.

Reminds me when a old friend, Don Henderson Sr, RIP, showed up at a Shelby show geez have to be back in the 80's or early 90's now, with what he was KNOWN as an original, I (&quot;think&quot; the year was) 1965 Shelby GT 350 R COUPE! Everyone at the show was telling him they NEVER made one, didn't come that way, it's a clone etc. Told him to get it off the grounds. That is the Mr Carroll Shelby himself arrived on scene. I guess word travels fast about this car and Carroll had to see it for himself.

Well low and behold, CONTRARY to the current knowledge of the PRO's and restorers at the time, Carroll walk up and looks the car over VERY CLOSELY from what Don told me. Then Carroll looked at Don and said, &quot;I haven't seen or even HEARD of one of these in YEARS&quot;! Seems there was a limited run of 5/6 cars that Carroll did just to see how the coupe would run against the fastbacks. It took Carroll's own words for the car to be accepted at the REAL DEAL even though EVERYONE said they never made one. Carroll obviously knew otherwise.

[William]

Hey I'm behaving myself. You want your eyebrows singed go on any Corvette forum and claim you have a '67 Corvette 327 that you're <span style="font-style: italic">certain</span> was built with a 427 hood. Another urban legend. Tough crowd over there.

Had the owner simply stated the car had a black grille and asked for opinions, my response would have been different. The brash statement that was made not only ignored the large body of 1st Gen Camaro knowledge, it made an uncalled for swipe at Jerry MacNeish. No one has examined more cars. Like him or not but respect his knowledge.

Meanwhile, I'll wait for proof.

[70 copo]

You know what is great about knowing all these workers after writing the book on the plant? The ability to pick up the phone and ask about a specific issue.

So I just did, and the reply was as follows:

<span style="font-weight: bold">&quot;When there was an issue with the wrong color grill it was usually due to a replacement worker that was not familiar with the element&quot;

&quot;It was rarely an issue of running out of grill stock but a bin selection error by the employee&quot;

&quot;Then we found the error it would be worked later on a repair ticket&quot;

&quot;Replacing the wrong grill in those days was not a high priority for us, we typically sent that on to the dealer as a minor defect&quot;

&quot;The key was to get a grille into the car that would fit and allow the other elements to proceed to complete the build of the unit&quot;</span>

[70 copo]

JL8Tom,

Here are some simple things that I figured out:

Most Judging is partisan to a degree and it has to be otherwise a show with no rules becomes a nightmare to govern for the participants.

Most Websites are also the same way as there is pressure to conform. This site is a rare exception where respectful debate is permitted with an occasional thread lock then someone gets a case of sore paws.

What many miss is judging or forums will never replace the first hand experience of the builders when it comes to explaining an exception, and I am honored to have ready access to a number of these fine men today when I need to ask.

On your specific car and grill? The Superintendent stated &quot;absolutely&quot;. So there is your Proof for what it is worth.... .