proper yenko rebody? (in new hemmings)

[L78steve]

This is obviously a Grey area. The more a car is worth the farther one will go to save it. For me the majority of the car would have had to be intact prior its resto. and rivets never removed before I would consider its purchase.

[WILMASBOYL78]

I understand the argument about retaining the original cowl with tag and VIN...but, when all of the other parts are replaced it just isn't the same car anymore. If it weren't for the big bucks involved this probably wouldn't be an issue...

My father used to have an expression that kind of covers this...he would say.." why don't you just take off the radiator cap and drive a new one underneath it"

wilma

[talwell]

Maybe we are misunderstanding him so lets ask this again:

What exactly do you have that is from a production COPO car and what is your intention with those parts? What do you need to do with these parts to be assembled back into a complete shell for restoration?

[RichSchmidt]

I know where there is a RS COPO car right now.It has been a race car since 1971.It has the original VIN in the dash,the firewall ends under the windsheld.The floors and frame rails are gone from the toe boards to the tail panel.The firewall with all the hidden VIN's are gone.,The front subframe was cut short at the firewall,and a tube frame built from there back,has the area under the engine cut out and rack and pinion steering installed.The car has the original rockers,roof with inner structure,rear quarters and tail panel.All the bolt on sheet metal is fiberglass now.Original engine/trans/rear.suspention ect are all long gone.If this car were to turned up restored using the metal that remains including fixing the original front subframe what would you classify it as.It would need one of those full floorpan/firewall assemblies,inner and outer wheehouse,the 1/4's would have to be unradiused,and a donor subframe would have to be used to fix the original.

I also have reason the belieive that I know where Grumpy's 68 Camaro is,and it is modified to this extent and is on a tube frame and has no VIN or firewall at all.Would that car be saveable?

[talwell]

[ QUOTE ]
I know where there is a RS COPO car right now.It has been a race car since 1971.It has the original VIN in the dash,the firewall ends under the windsheld.The floors and frame rails are gone from the toe boards to the tail panel.The firewall with all the hidden VIN's are gone.,The front subframe was cut short at the firewall,and a tube frame built from there back,has the area under the engine cut out and rack and pinion steering installed.The car has the original rockers,roof with inner structure,rear quarters and tail panel.All the bolt on sheet metal is fiberglass now.Original engine/trans/rear.suspention ect are all long gone.If this car were to turned up restored using the metal that remains including fixing the original front subframe what would you classify it as.It would need one of those full floorpan/firewall assemblies,inner and outer wheehouse,the 1/4's would have to be unradiused,and a donor subframe would have to be used to fix the original.

I also have reason the belieive that I know where Grumpy's 68 Camaro is,and it is modified to this extent and is on a tube frame and has no VIN or firewall at all.Would that car be saveable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich-

In my opinion if what you say is still there could be saved and built around to assemble a completed shell I would call that a restore - not a rebody. In my eyes a rebody is when a completely seperate body has the trim & vin tags transferred to it - and that body having been another car at some time and now being represented as the original car that the tags came from. Lets not mention Dynacorn bodies - besides teh terrible quality any of those shells that finds a period VIN or trim tag is criminal and illegal.

[talwell]

In regards to the original OP posting - lets go over what he is asking here.

He is asking what a "correct or proper rebody" is.

My answer to this is that there is no such thing - a rebody is a new and distinctly different car in itself. That body is and should remain as whatever it was assembled as - the application of trim tags and vin plates does not change what that body was originally built as.

Now when it comes to restoration there will be times when a new or different body will be used in the re-construction of the car to be completed. This would be considered a rebody. To make this rebody as correct as it can be (although it will truely never be the car that the original was) the application of as much of the original drivetrain, interior, exterior body panels and any other parts from the donor car should be used. This will come to complete what is known as a rebodied car and despite the fact that all the original donor parts may be come from a highly collectible or desirable car the newly constructed car will not become what the donor car once was. At best it will become a clone built using OEM and correct parts.

[MultiMopars]

Boy, it is very obvious from this short thread that it is in the eye of the beholder. With words like "intent" and comments like "if the tags are removed and replaced on the same portion of the original body," "all the metal was replaced on the original car" etc. it is clear that it depends on what people can live with in their own minds.

This arguement has been raging throughout the old car hobby for many years now. What many don't know is that reboding has been going on since the 30s when the high end cars such as Duesenbergs were often "rebodied" with a completely different model body on an existing frame simply to satisfy the customers desire. It was done at the factory, the dealer, or any garage capable of doing it. It has been accepted in the antique hobby on these cars for years. Why then is it suddenly so important in the muscle car venue when someone modifies/takes parts from/restores/re-tags a basic factory model that comes down the assembly line and has different items added to it to build what the V.I.N. or trim tag shows it to be? Note that the word "restores" obviously means many different things to many different people.

Here is a copy and past from another web site from years ago that is speaking of unibody cars on the subject but it's basis certainly applies to all old muscle cars in the hobby.


Most feel the real problem is that there is no definition of where the line is with regards to the restoration of a unibody car.

At what point does the car cross the line from what has been described above as a restoration rather than a rebody?

How much of the original unibody has to be left for new, reproduction, or good used parts to be attached to?

How big of a CHUNK of a donor car can you use in this restoration before it is considered a rebody?

Does the simple act of removing the V.I.N. plate from one car or part of the car constitute a rebody?

What about removing the V.I.N. plate because the part of the car that it is attached to is damaged? Does this constitute a rebody?

Does a car that was front or rear "clipped" by a bodyshop 30+ years ago constitute a partial rebody?

If a car was first FRONT clipped and a year later REAR clipped, does this constitute a complete rebody?

All good questions with no answers that probably any two people will agree on.

This is why so many people have mixed feeling about the restoration/rebody arguement.

[racegump]

I think that if a car has honest repairs, no matter how bad it was, it is restored. To me that means stripping it to bare metal and replacing the items that are needed, not taking the easy route and switching the cowl/tag, etc. If a car is so rusted, burned, or wrecked to the point that no good metal is left it is junk and should be considered gone. To use the tag or cowl from a car like that and try to claim it as restored or re-bodied is a joke.

[MultiMopars]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that if a car has honest repairs , no matter how bad it was, it is restored. To me that means stripping it to bare metal and replacing the items that are needed, not taking the easy route and switching the cowl/tag, etc. If a car is so rusted, burned, or wrecked to the point that no good metal is left it is junk and should be considered gone. To use the tag or cowl from a car like that and try to claim it as restored or re-bodied is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHO decides what an "honest repair" is?
If I assume you mean a restoration other than by rebody (if anyone can define when it takes place) then I guess it is safe to assume that you would be satisfied with a burned, rusted, damaged car that was repaired by a novice welding parts from 15 different cars togather in their garage?
You would not rather have one that all of the correct parts were simply transfered to a complete, undamaged factory built donor car just as the factory did to build that same car that is what the V.I.N. trim tag indicates?

Statements like this are often used for the rebody arguement. However, using this same LOGIC 99% of these old muscle cars "restored" (either by what some refer to as the conventional way OR rebody) in the last 10 years or more would never have taken place. When you figure that MOST of these cars were rusted, damaged, incomplete, to the point that when parked they were basially "totaled" in reality. When the values of these cars began to rise in value people started pulling cars out of junkyards, backyards, garages, fields, and barns.

People complain that a resurrected car by means of rebody is wrong, but some of those same people will say that it is restored if they take one of these rust buckets and bolt or weld on parts from SEVERAL other old donor cars or new repo parts. So, once again look at my other post above, WHO in the hobby DEFINES when a "restoration" ends and a "rebody" begins. Apparently EVERYBODY does and forms their own opinions.

Some say that it is done simply for profit. WHO is the mind reader in this case? How do they know what is in the mind of the person that owns the car.

Many people in the hobby currently own cars that were at one time considered totaled, or in other words worth less when restored than the cost to do so.

[black69]

Here is a link to a car that is close to a rebody, yet still is not.

http://agar.homestead.com/myridesbarrelcuda.html

I would give it a rebody pass. The owner is very up front on pictures before it was painted (baremetal firewall/cowl), its donor material (not a complete roller), the tons of work done to salvage it. I would consider it a legal car.

now is this maybe also a proper rebody by some? or is that even more metal replacement than this car? note the owner of this cuda in the link is not calling his car a rebody.