Question On rebody? 1973 Z-28

[markinnaples]

Would it be worth buying it and getting a 6 cyl 70-73 and making a clone out of it?

Is it for personal use or to flip?

[MultiMopars]

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I am sure you can find yourself a real nice 1973 Z/28 for reasonable money. Not sure why anybody would even consider all that work/money for a 73 Z/28 or even a 69 Z/28 for that matter. Way to many of them out there IMO. Even if you did all that work yourself it would have to add up to double of what that car is worth.

[/ QUOTE ] I probably will pass on it, it has just been on my mind the last couple days and I like the fact that all the original stuff is there, but that is all it has going for it. I did a parts cost including the shell I know of and came up with 13k in the car done but that is not my time at all. I kinda like to work for .05 an hour it seems.... I think I better pass on this project!

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I agree that for this particular car it would not be cost effective regarding the end value of the car. the absolute BEST #1 1973 Z28 should be a top price of $30K and probably far less in this market time.

[king_midas]

Only illegal if the car that is being destroyed is stolen. If you keep the titles for both cars, and document the swap, you're good to go.

Why everyone gets their panties in an bunch over this is beyond me. It's nothing different than a motor swap...

In Cali, they look at all numbers when inspecting a car, and if your eng # doesn't match, you have to prove where it came from, as they're on the lookout for theft.

This is no different.

[William]

There were at least two re-bodied cars sold at B-J last January, disclosed on their display info.

[Salvatore]

Smart move Jeff. You can do much better!

[njsteve]

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Don't bother. It's illegal to rebody. Is it worth looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life wondering if/when you'll get sued by some future purchaser and/or charged with felonies for swapping a VIN to a new shell and removing a VIN from the donor shell?

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Oh boy, this is a can of worms that is CONSTANTLY heatedly discuss on mopar sites. There is a difference between what SOME people consider ETHICS vs. LAW.

Let me say that what I am posting here is the LAW and not MY personal opinion.


Here is the link to the Federal law:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/searc...11----000-.html

I have highlighted the areas that specifically show that it is not illegal in the regard we are referring to in the hobby.

(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by— (i) the owner or his authorized agent; (ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act

it is my understanding that some States have laws against it that do not spell out exceptions for the hobby. However, any links to individual State laws that have been sent to me I HAVE found a similar exception to the Fed. law.

The bottom line is, THE INTENT of the law. It is basically spelled out in the FEDERAL law. The law was created to thwart criminals trying to hide stolen vehicles, NOT the car hobby, restorations, lost V.I.N. of legal owners.

Futhermore, when Dynacorn first started offering complete bodies for 1969 Camaros this came up. Below is a copy and paste from their FAQ section addressing this.



Question: 2005/06/29

What about the VIN?

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Answer: 2005/06/29

A Vehicle or Vessel Identification Number (VIN) is issued by a manufacturer or State Licensing authority. There are three ways for a vehicle to obtain a number.

1) An existing VIN on a vehicle that is titled in your name can be transferred to a repair part (as instructed by your State authority).
2) A number may be issued by your State to ID a custom built vehicle when it passes a safety and number verification inspection.
3) A licensed manufacturer issued a VIN when the vehicle (or vessel) is made and ready for delivery. This can only be issued when a "turn key" (completed) car, truck, boat or aircraft has been manufactured.


Many people are not aware that this happens all the time with wreck rebuilders when two cars are grafted togather and of course only ONE V.I.N. can be used.

With Mopars since they are unibodies the REAL question is, how much of a chunk of the original unibody with the V.I.N. attached has to remain to make a difference between a conventional restoration vs. a rebody. The V.I.N. plate is attached to the door on 67 back cars and on the dash panel on 68-up cars. BOTH of these items are bolt on items, so do you simply bolt THOSE items to a donor body and call it a conventional resto? It all boils down to what the owner can live with in their own minds.

Rebodys go on in the secret of individual garages simply because even though it is legal in the eyes of the Federal law it is still frowned upon by SOME of the hobby.

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Plain and simple. Are you a lawyer giving legal advice on this subject? If you are not, please don't do it. Your interpretation is incorrect. You never go by only the letter of the law, you follow the caselaw interpretations of the statutory language.

I am an attorney. I have experience with this area of law. Everyone always seems to forget the fact that it takes 2 cars to do a rebody.

WHEN YOU REMOVE THE VIN OFF OF THE DONOR CAR, THAT IS A SEPERATE FELONY. WHEN YOU PLACE A VIN TAG ON A CAR BODY OTHER THAN THE BODY IT CAME FROM THE FACTORY ON, THAT IS A FELONY. You could conceivably be charged with five seperate felonies for doing a rebody: the removal from the original body, the failure to replace it on that body, the removal from the donor body, the failure to replace it on that body, and the placement of the original VIN on the donor body.

No state exemption allows you to do this. It refers to repairing component parts, i.e., a rusted dash panel, by removing the VIN, repairing/replacing the panel and reattaching it TO THE SAME BODY, NOT A DIFFERENT ONE.

Sorry for getting on my high horse but if it saves someone the grief and massive legal expenses of defending criminal charges as well as a the enevitable civil lawsuit, I am happy to provide the advice.

One more thing to worry about is the statute of limitations: while the criminal charge may have a specific time limit on how long charges can be filed from the moment of the original rebodying, (3-5 years) most states have antifraud laws that start the clock running from the time the fraud WAS OR SHOULD HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED, not from when it actually occurred, i.e., not the date of the rebody but the date when the 4th or 5th guy down the line finally discovers his low mile Z/28 is neither a Z/28 nor has low miles. So that in and of itself should make people think twice about rebodying when you could get sued many, many years later.

As for the sellers of cars at BJ and other auctions that openly advertise the fact that their cars were rebodied, I would say "There but for the grace of God..." I don't doubt that one of these days there's going to be an interesting scene at one of these auctions, when some major law enforcement action occurs. But for the time being, the Feds have more important bad guys to chase after.

[MultiMopars]

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There were at least two re-bodied cars sold at B-J last January, disclosed on their display info.

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I don't think it is as big a deal throughout the hobby as it seems to be on these Internet forums based on what I see at some of the auctions where full disclosure has been made. basicly the people buying think if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has the V.I.N. of a duck it is a duck.

Yes, a few years ago there was a 1970 Hemi Cuda hardtop at B-J that had burned in a warehouse fire and was rebodied. They disclosed it on the auction block ON SpeedVision and it sold for $600K pluse buyers fee. that was more than any other Cuda hardtop during that sale including the 71s.

[njsteve]

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There were at least two re-bodied cars sold at B-J last January, disclosed on their display info.

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I don't think it is as big a deal throughout the hobby as it seems to be on these Internet forums based on what I see at some of the auctions where full disclosure has been made. basicly the people buying think if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has the V.I.N. of a duck it is a duck.

Yes, a few years ago there was a 1970 Hemi Cuda hardtop at B-J that had burned in a warehouse fire and was rebodied. They disclosed it on the auction block ON SpeedVision and it sold for $600K pluse buyers fee. that was more than any other Cuda hardtop during that sale including the 71s.

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I remember watching that auction, too. I was sitting around with a couple of buddies who investigate that particular crime and I saw their eyes bug out as they both looked at each other in disbelief at what they just heard from the announcers. They then had a race to see who could call the car in first and file the report.

[MultiMopars]

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There were at least two re-bodied cars sold at B-J last January, disclosed on their display info.

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I don't think it is as big a deal throughout the hobby as it seems to be on these Internet forums based on what I see at some of the auctions where full disclosure has been made. basicly the people buying think if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has the V.I.N. of a duck it is a duck.

Yes, a few years ago there was a 1970 Hemi Cuda hardtop at B-J that had burned in a warehouse fire and was rebodied. They disclosed it on the auction block ON SpeedVision and it sold for $600K pluse buyers fee. that was more than any other Cuda hardtop during that sale including the 71s.

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I remember watching that auction, too. I was sitting around with a couple of buddies who investigate that particular crime and I saw their eyes bug out as they both looked at each other in disbelief at what they just heard from the announcers. They then had a race to see who could call the car in first and file the report.

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Yeah, I know an AZ. ex state trooper that used to investigate stolen cars as well that thought something should be done about that situation as well, but the bottom line is, that unless there is a stolen car or parts involved, there is nothing illegal about it.

Most people don't like to think about it but how many of our cars out there do you think may have stolen parts on them? When you buy parts for your car do you investigate where they came from? If you are buying a part that has a V.I.N. on it do you call the police to see if that V.I.N. was ever reported stolen? Food for thought.

[njsteve]

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Yeah, I know an AZ. ex state trooper that used to investigate stolen cars as well that thought something should be done about that situation as well, but the bottom line is, that unless there is a stolen car or parts involved, there is nothing illegal about it.

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It is still very much illegal, it is just not that often enforced if the car wasn't found to be stolen, as they have much more bigger fish to fry.

A lot of retired law enforcement car guys work for NICB (National Insurance Crime Bureau). One thing I forgot to mention is that when those rebodied cars show up at auction, the NICB guys get the VIN number info and plug them into their database. Imagine your surprise when you buy that rebodied $600K hemicuda and try to insure it and your insurance company declines coverage, and then every other insurance company you call after that also declines coverage as the car has been redflagged as a rebody in the insurance crime database. OUCH!