Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl heads

[HO455]

So much for this seller's theory that NO 1969 Broadcast sheets-say W-30. Here is a car purchased November 1969 with a broadcast sheet that clearly is marked W-30. Maybe I am just confused though.

http://www.colinsclassicauto.com/detail.php?car=12

[Johnny Horsepower]

i have been told that 70 olds buildsheets do not have a vin!??!

John

[SmallHurst]

I just love his marketing scheme!!!! Start out with a '69 Cutlass, add this kit and some water.... poof Instant H/O!!!!
(1969 - 1969 Cutlass/442 ) HURST OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS FACTORY APPEARANCE KIT H/O - COMPLETE KIT TO CONVERT ANY 1969 CUTLASS "S" 442 OR CONVERTIBLE INTO A 69 HURST OLDS LOOK-A-LIKE. KIT INCLUDES: 1 DUAL SNORKEL HOOD SCOOP, 1 PAIR OF SPECIAL MIRRORS AND MOUNTING HARDWARE, 1 REAR SPOILER WING, 3 HURST OLDS EMBLEMS, 455 H/O SCOOP DECALS, 1 DOC WATSON GLOVE BOX EMBLEM ANOTHER PART NOT INCLUDED THAT WOULD TAKE YOUR CAR UP A NOTCH IS A SET OF ORIGINAL 455 "D" HEADS, WHICH WE ARE ALSO REPRODUCING. WITH THE PARTS WE MAKE YOU CAN BUILD AN EXACT DUPLICATE OF THE FAMED 1969 HURST OLDS

The price tag of all of this--$929. Used to be the mirrors alone were close to this price. Granted, nothing can replace paperwork and original owners, but this is borderlining on stupid easy clones!!!

[JOZW30]

HO455,

First, sorry if I offended you or anyone else with my opinions.

As for that e-bay car, I stand by what I said. I can't tell whether it's real based on the info in the auction. If I was forced to make a decision on that particular car without seeing it in person, I'd keep my money in my pocket and wait for a car with better documents. Anyone on this forum buying this car without climbing all over it in person?

Like you & others have said, the seller has gone to a lot of trouble to create a comfort level regarding the authenticity of this car. For me that says there is nothing "bulletproof".

Therefore, back to my original comments, I'd treat this thing like a "could be" W30, and would not pay top dollar. Unless while looking at it the seller produced something that could not be questioned. You’re talking about being “fooled”, what is so tricky about this?

Maybe because I'm a poor schmuck and couldn't afford to be wrong about something like this. I'm guessing most guys that can spend this kind of money on a hunk of metal and plastic won't miss meals when it comes time to sell it and they’ve learned it's not real.

By the way, how does what the car sounds like 36 years later have anything to do with its authenticity?

As for the 69 H/O "kit", didn't see where it included the one-of-a-kind intake, and air-cleaner assembly ($$$$$$$$). But I guess there are people out there that would be fooled without them..........

Again, sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

[olredalert]

-------I dont think you hurt anyones feelings, JOZ, but you must admit there arent many on this sight that wouldnt go and look at a $200,000 purchase. At the very least anyone on here would send a qualified agent. I dont think anyone else here would consider this W30 an absolutely real car without seeing it either. The upper-end bidders on this 442 probably have already done their due diligence, and if they havent and end up with a clone, albeit a very good one then as far as Im concerned its their problem. Educate thyself, buyer!!!........Bill S

[JOZW30]

I agree Bill, that's exactly what I've been trying to say.

Quote: "Anyone on this forum buying this car without climbing all over it in person?"

Joe

[Stefano]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Oh well, I just still don't agree that it's that easy to fool someone that knows about these cars.


Hey JOZW30 ,

Is it live or Memorex? Tell me if you believe this one to be authentic? You seem to think that a well-done clone can fool none of the Olds guys. Tell me with your W-30 expertise whether this one is real or fake? I have my own opinion after seeing it & hearing it run at the fall 2006 Mecum auction. It also had a very unique broadcast sheet that had NO mention of W-30. The owner has a reason for this though that sounds legit. Right!!! I guess this Muscle Car Review magazine is supposed to prove some level of authenticity also as if they were not converting/cloning cars way back in the late eighties. Good luck! But it had ALL THE RIGHT PARTS. Thanks Parts Place! The owner seems to be willing to do or say anything to establish some level of credibility for this car. But you should still be able to weed out the fakes for us novices. Maybe you better E-mail a few of the bidders and tip them off as to your take. Just my opinion though.

W-30 Convertible
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-W-30...1QQcmdZViewItem


Real Olds Power Chat

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=41977

[/ QUOTE ]


I had two Customers interested in purchasing this car, so I gave it a good look over at the auction. I could not determine if it was a real W30 or not?

The Broadcast card did not show the W30 option, while I have never seen an authentic W30 broadcast card without it, this could have been a factory mistake?

btw; Original Blank Broadcast cards, from the OEM have been avialable for years, many of these original blanks have also been sold on ebay! So, as a W30 Collector and Enthusiast a W30 Broadcast Card, "paperwork", is not an end all.

At least you can be very certain that the current owner did not have one of the ebay broadcast sheets made up.

W30s also would have had a specific gear ratio as std. or optional. Since the rear was Rusty and Crusty I could not see it?

The $$$$$ amount on Bill of sale to the second owner, which was present, was for far less than the value of a real W30 Convertible 4 speed, but was offered up as proof and validity.

We communicated with the "Original" Owner to see if he had any additional docs or Vintage Pics. He said that it was a real car and that everyone in town knew the car, but unfortunately no pics or additional docs?



All original sheet metal 1970 and 71 W30s which I have inspected have a factory inspection mark showing W30. I could not see it on this car? They were only built (at least 99%) at the Lansing Plant, in Detroit. But, parts could have been changed?

To those who do not follow these cars, only 96 were ever built in a Convertible and 4 speed, so they are worth the effort to try and validate.

Per John's Post. The VIN is not on the broadcast card, only the body sequence number, which corresponds to the trim tag.

[HO455]

Hi Stefano,


Very well said regarding the 1970 blue W-30 convertible that was offered for sale at the Mecum auction and on E-bay. As I said before this particular car raised a great deal more questions than it was able to answer. From what I understand the seller had a reserve price of around 400K when it went through the fall 2006 Mecum auction. This was not a realistic price for this particular car considering the lack of definitive proof/ history as well as the overall condition of the car.

I agree about the rarity and the desirability of the W-30 convertible four speed cars. They have always been on the elite list of convertible Muscle cars. But it seems as though lately they have become extremely sought after & prized. I think the 1970-2 W-30 convertibles have always had one of the most beautiful bodies of the entire GM convertible line-up. Although, I equally appreciate the W-30 coupes due to their unique styling & performance advantages. I certainly value the rarity and extremely collectible nature of the entire stable of GM's elite convertible Muscle Cars whether they be an LS-6 Chevelle SS convertible, RAIV Judge convertible, or a Buick Stage one convertible. Clearly for Oldsmobile the four-speed cars were something special in the W-30s making them the most sought after for the Olds marquee.

As far as legitimate W-30 convertible’s that have changed hands–I have to rely on what I have learned from both renowned Oldsmobile restorers/authorities Gorden Vandermuellen and Troy Thornton. Both Mr. Vandermuellen and Mr. Thornton recently told me that all of the authentic and completely documented W-30 converts are in the hands of astute collectors that don’t plan or need to sell their cars anytime soon. They claim that most of what they have seen moving through auction houses or for sale are just very well done clones. Thornton said that authentic convertible W-30 cars with perfect pedigrees don’t even come up for sale, and if one should that the seller could name their price. Thornton told me that when one does comes up for sale it generally moves from one collector’s hands to another collector without any public knowledge of the sale. The last true & fully documented 1970 442 W-30 convertible four-speed car that traded hands was sold within a complete collection of a dozen or so RARE Oldsmobile’s. This collection featured all true concours number-one conditioned pedigreed cars that sold as a whole to an East Coast Muscle Car collector. This collection included several W-30 coupes, HOs and others along side a 1971 W-30 (one of thirty-two) and 1972 W-30 (one of thirty-three) convertible four-speed cars all w/ironclad pedigrees that all benefited from frame off rotisserie restorations. The 1970, which sold as part of the collection-I, have personally seen and I can say it was one of the most stunning autos & restorations I have yet seen. This 1970 W-30 convertible was ordered new out of the Jim Stohlman Oldsmobile Dealership. It was originally ordered to compete in the convertible four-speed stock classes of NHRA drag racing. It was Platinum & black w/four speed, no power options at all and a W-27 rear end.

I must mention also what a great help Troy Thornton has been to me recently. I am in the process of doing a complete restoration of my 1969 Hurst/ Olds and Troy has provided me with a great deal of advice as to what is or is not correct etc… he has always been kind & patient when we have spoken.

Lastly I will include a cool picture of 1970 W-30 post coupe that was owned & restored by longtime Olds guy Greg Goden. It was raced under the name of the Skunk and featured a four-speed and a W-27 rear end.

I hope everyone has a great Christmas and New Year ahead!

Cheers


John


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[Stefano]

W-Machines Rock!