Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?

[Unreal]

The hobby, and probably the law accepts the replacement of all sheetmetal, as long as the VIN area is unmodified. You can cut out and replace everything but that little portion around the VIN, and it's OK. But cut out the little portion of the VIN, and put it on another car, and you are a crook.

Said another way, If you clap by moving the right hand into the left it is OK. But don't clap by moving the left hand into the right!!

[MotownMadman]

Very interesting anology, Hmmmm, wouldnt be the first time I had the clap.... just kidding! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[stingr69]

We realy only need full disclosure to identify crooks. That is where the rubber meets the road IMO. The crooks are those that knowingly do not provide full acurate disclosure of the cars specifics in order to mislead a buyer.

Move the VIN and you are a crook, end of story. There is no legitimate reason to move a VIN to a different body. Moving a VIN is a LOT easier than a full resto so it just ain't gonna ever be that easy. If it were acceptable, nobody would restore a worn out car. Tag switch would be too easy.

We can get pretty hung up on "original" but in reality we endeavour to make our cars "look" a certain way, but they will never truly be "original" again, we just try to make them LOOK and run that way.

"Repainted" is just as "un-original" as "restamped". [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] (OH BOY, I actualy got enough courage to finaly say it). It is your car, do what ever makes you happy but don't lie about it.

Go ahead, type away!

-Mark.

[hvychev]

I have a question that has buged me for a while now.

I had a 1979 Corvette for about 3 years that I sold in 3/01. The actual VIN plate was coroded and actually eaten away in some spots. The car was pretty original but Corvettes in that late 70's era tended to rust in the pilar area where the vin tag was located due to water or moisture that would have settled in that area. That is how I bought the car and that is how I sold it. The title, owner history, car, and #'s were perfect otherwise. What could I have done in this situation?

[68l30]

If it's rotten,cut it out and replace it.If it's missing,find a replacement.If it's bent,straighten it.If it can be saved,by all means restore it.If it's dead.....plant it! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] If you need to switch a body you are restoring the wrong car.You are,without a doubt,going to deceive someone sometime.You will always know your cars is not what it appears.If you feel fine with duping yourself into believing this is the same car,so be it.You have to live with the legal and moral trouble to follow.I have seen several cars that are national show winners,taken rolls of film,only to find out it is a rebody. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] Is it a nice car? Sure, I would have loved to own it.But now, after all the smoke and mirrors, I see the car in a different light.I was fooled into believing the history,resto,and validity of everything around it.To me there is something special about the real deal,battle scars and all.Hell,I love beaters,character dents,rot everywhere,and the old peace sign on the rear bumper.I just love cars,nothing more or less.I am not into the hobby for financial reasons.I don't see the reason for a rebody other than money.I know they are out there,we just need to be wiser because of them.Remember,bury the dead.They have earned it.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Steve

[hvychev]

Well Said! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[70 copo]

If the position is taken that if it is "dead then bury it" then ANY repair that would render the vehicle inoperable could be considered non repairable. You guys with re- stamped blocks, trannys, and rears... You know who you are!

The rebody issue is simply the extreme of saving the remaining cars that are out there. How are one of these cars properly saved? NOS GM sheet metal? How many parts can be replaced before the car should die? one floor? two floors? one quarter panel? both? One of the ZL-1's that were restored over a decade ago had almost all of the sheet metal removed excluding the driveshaft tunnel. The point that I am making here is that after reading this string of posts this topic is clearly about "rarety and not getting ripped off". It seems that those of us with the nice cars are perhaps overly concerned with maintaining market value. There are extremes on both sides of this opinion.

Many of the fighter aircraft recovered after WW2 currently on display were put together from several different planes- yet when assembled they clearly represent a completed example of that type of aircraft. Again-rarity is the issue here. Rarity drives the desireability of an item higher. If the desireability is high (and this web site clearly drives that) - the remaining material that is out there will be built up into functional equipment. Those of us with these cars begin this process by paying big dollars for desireable cars, which drives the remaining junk values in to the range where it becomes viable to do a "rebody". As long as the price is high, desireability is high, we will have the major component replacement issue. Interiors, Blocks, entire drive trains, major sections of the body sheetmetal - or entire bodys from the firewall back. Bottom line buyer beware- know what you are buying and be happy with it! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Unreal]

68TOPSTOCK,
You're right about the bedtime story. And just as bedtime story tellers don't all tell the same story the same way, hobbiests/businessmen interpret the "acceptable" restoration process differently. Sometimes that interpretation is a justification for their personal situation.

If I had a rust free all original Yenko, I might argue that only rust free all original Yenkos are "real" ones.

If I had one with rusty quarters, I might argue that it's OK to replace quarters and still have a "real" one.

If I had a total rust bucket, I might argue that rebody is OK.

But since I have a clone (I actually prefer Brian's "Tribute car" term but I dont want to appear to be legitamizing clones), I argue that it's not real, but it's not a fraud, either.

[Jeff H]

If you need another body to save your car, how come you're not saving the other body instead? Because it's a plain old, base car.

[MotownMadman]

Jeff, that is the point. I am not discussing for or against a rebodie being acceptable, I am just trying to look at the big picture here. Nobody wants to take the time or spend the money to restore a plain jane car. To justify a high dollar restoration on most accounts it has to do with rarity. However, I have known cases where someone has invested all the time and money in a plain jane car for sentimental reasons, but in most cases it is for rarity. I would think there are two reasons to do a rebodie. First, you have a car which may need quarters and floor pans, and maybe a trunk pan. This is expensive and time consuming, real expensive for someone having the work done. In this case the body is in my opinion being a bodyman, an easy fix. I would certainly not even consider a rebodie in this case, I would just fix what I had and move on. For the person who would do a rebodie here, it is simply about money, money, money. That I find to be dead wrong. Now lets look at the second scenario, you have a rare car, lets say every panel on the car is rusted badly, including the firewall and dash. Two ways to go here, replace every panel including the firewall and dash, which in essence when you are done what have you got, a new body. In this case I may go along with a rebodie if it were a rare enough car, ZL-1 etc. What it comes down to is this. We have no problem with changing a front fender on one of these cars, so what is the difference between a front fender and a quarter panel? None with the exception of how it attaches. One bolts and one welds. Difference between a inner front fender and inner rear fender? The way it attaches, and so on and so on. We have to remember that the bodies we are discussing here in the beginning were nothing more than a collection of parts that were assembled into a whole. No different then a front clip on a car, it is removeable in one piece, so it in itself is the front half of a car body. We have no problem with replacing one piece, fender vs quarter, etc etc, or if needed we replace the entire thing, which in that respect has no difference then replacing the entire rear half. If we are going to argue against a rebodie, it is then going to have to be unacceptable to replace any panel that is welded on, quarters, floors, etc. Once it becomes acceptable to start replacing welded on panels, it does not make any sense to say, "Ok, stop, you have gone far enough". If one is ok, then all is ok. I am not saying I agree with a rebodie, what I am coming around to is it has to be all or none as where is the imaginairy line that you cant cross. In one post here someone had said something about burying a dead car, yet in another section of this forum he had urged someone to buy the X-race car Mighty Mouse off E-Bay and save it. That car would need every panel on the body, or a different body. We even argue with ourselves about this issue. Nobody wants to see a rebodie, yet nobody wants to see an important piece of history gone forever either. None of us in this hobby has the right to tell anyone else what to do with their car, no more then we want to be told. On the other hand, no one has the right to intentionally decieve anyone else, unfortunatly a lot of deception is occuring in this hobby. But, here is the key. We live in America, or Canada, same freedoms, which gives us the right to choose what we do with ours cars, homes, etc, etc, with that comes the right to choose what we buy from someone else. I personally would never buy a restored car unless the car came with step by step photographs of the restoration, before, during, and after so that I know what I am buying, and if the person who ends up buying the car from me requires seeing the same photos before he buys, well he has chosen to know what he is buying. Anybody who wants to spend the big money on buying a restored car should be smart enough to make a informed decision on what they are buying, no body is forcing anyone else to buy their car. With the exception of the true original survivors left, a great deal of the restored cars have had major componants replaced on them, whether the current owners know it or not, or if they admit it or not. We have the right to choose, I choose not to buy a car with a rebodie, but I also choose to replace every panel on a car if I believe it is a piece of history worth saving. However, when I do a restoration (I have done a great deal)I do take photographs, or video of every process that leaves my shop with the car. I started this thread as a survey of sorts, it has went where I expected, not many of us are comfortable with a rebodie, yet at the same time we are not comfortable with others telling what to do with our cars either. In this hobby today, just make sure of what you are buying, and if you are not sure get an expert to look at it. If the car has a recent restoration and the owner dosent have photos, ask yourself why? More food for thought. Thanks, Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]