ThE ** RAREST** C.O.P.O. Car .

[JoeC]

I have been posting about this for over 20 years that I think the Tailfins & Bowties data and the Fran Preve numbers are high estimates for the number of COPO 427 cars built.

I feel the “700” number is more accurate since that is the number that Chevy used in the COPO service letters.

The Tailfins & Bowties data are numbers for RPO L78 and Z27 SS and I don’t see anything that indicates Chevy included the COPOs and 427 engines or that they excluded them.

To use those numbers you have to assume the COPO 427 options are included in the L78 totals and were not included in the Z27 (Camaro SS) total.

This may or may not be correct but it seems inconsistent to say Chevy considered the COPO 427 as a L78 and not an SS.
If they began as an L78, I would think they would be SS L78 before the COPO 427 conversion but we don't know how they were used in the RPO totals.

I don’t understand why people don’t use the “700” number as more accurate since that is the number that Chevy used in the COPO service letters

The Tailfins & Bowties RPO data and the Fran Preve engine numbers are both great sources of information but the “700” number is the number that Chevy used in 1969 as the number of vehicles built.

The Chevy COPO letters, that were reprinted in the COPO Connection book , said about 700 high performance vehicles were “in process” as of 7-9-69.

The 4 COPO letters document the build of the 9560 (ZL1) , 9561 (L72 Camaro) , 9562 (L72 Chevelle) and 9737 (Yenko Sportscar Conversion ). The 4 letters are dated 7-9-69 to 7-24-69 and states the total of these high performance vehicle orders are about 700.

I know some COPO 427 cars were built after 7-9-69 but I don’t think many were ordered after 7-9-69 .

The “700” number includes the 9560 (ZL1) , 9561 (L72 Camaro) , 9562 (L72 Chevelle).

This is about half of what the total is using the Tailfins & Bowties data and the Fran Preve engine numbers.

Attached a pic of the *700” number in one of the 4 Chevy COPO Letters reprinted in the COPO Connection book

[70 copo]

Norwood Plant engineering had a hand full of 427 cars to test most evenings out back by rail load out during production.

The estimate came from the engineer who was responsible for the actual physical testing.

He stated he tested in total "several hundred cars" as a required control group from 427 production. Testing was limited to two cars per shift during the build period or a 50% production control grouping.

[William]

The "approximately 700 total vehicles" was an estimate made during July, 1969. There were plenty of COPO Camaros built August 1969 through the end of production. All Camaro orders in the system at that time were built in July. When Camaro production resumed August, 1969 the body/confirmation number sequence had been reset to N100001. I have 41 VINs for cars built 08C and later not on order in July.

"This may or may not be correct but it seems inconsistent to say Chevy considered the COPO 427 as a L78 and not an SS. If they began as an L78, I would think they would be SS L78 before the COPO 427 conversion but we don't know how they were used in the RPO totals."

At one time GM Canada would send a copy of the page of system-generated build records a certain VIN was listed on. There would be 15-20 other VINs/build records on the page. I have many of these pages. The build records for COPO Camaros shipped to Canada ONLY list L78 and do NOT list Z27-even the ZL1. Those cars also list the COPO number. [True L78 cars will also list Z27]. The letter CDN later supplied also listed the options that way for COPOs. That means that when Chevrolet tallied up the option build totals at the end of production, there were 1,066 L78 cars that were NOT also Camaro SS.

The only explanation for that: 69 COPO 9560 Camaros, 997 COPO 9561 Camaros. The Fran Preve and T & B numbers support it. There is plenty of evidence that there were many COPO Camaros ordered and built long after the July letter. Known late MN/MO engine dates: 822, 906, 911, 916, 923, 1002, 1013, 1016. Known late BE axle dates: 908, 919, 927, 1003.

The July letter might include all COPO Chevelles ordered/built; not all COPO Camaros.

[JoeC]

Originally Posted by William

There is plenty of evidence that there were many COPO Camaros ordered and built long after the July letter. Known late MN/MO engine dates: 822, 906, 911, 916, 923, 1002, 1013, 1016. Known late BE axle dates: 908, 919, 927, 1003.

The July letter might include all COPO Chevelles ordered/built; not all COPO Camaros.

20 years later and it is still an interesting discussion to me

How many L72 Camaros could have been made after the end of July? Maybe 100?

Using the RPO L78 and RPO Z27 SS totals it comes up with 997 L72 Camaros produced.

Chevy COPO letters state about 700 COPO 427s were “in process” as of 7-9-69. (includes ZL1, L72 Camaro, and L72 Chevelle)

That would mean less then 500 L72 Camaros produced by July 31 .

Chevy would have had to make another 500 L72 Camaros after July 31 to get up to the 997 total

[JoeC]

Originally Posted by William

The "approximately 700 total vehicles" was an estimate made during July, 1969.

If you read the 1969 COPO letters from Chevy they do not say the 700 number as just an estimate. They are very detailed letters and looks like a lot of effort went into writing them.

The letter states the 700 number is from “ a complete review of the high performance vehicle area orders to date “.
They counted the actual orders for COPO 427s.

They had access to the Tonawanda L72 engine production numbers , why didn’t they use them?

We know more were ordered and built after 7-9-1969 but how many?

[William]

Tonawanda did not produce engines on spec. They were built based on demand from vehicle assembly plants. Tonawanda built 1,373 Camaro/Chevelle L72 engines. For '700 total vehicles' to be correct means about 700 L72 engines were produced for no reason. Really think they did that?

"That would mean less then 500 L72 Camaros produced by July 31."

By July 17th, Tonawanda had produced 920 Camaro L72 engines. The various data bases out there have over 400 COPO Camaro VINs built as of the July shutdown at Norwood. There are plenty of unknown COPO Camaros; the famous Mac's Chev photo dated June 1969 shows 8 COPO Camaros on their lot. Only one is known. Courtesy Chev in Sebring OH had some; none known to exist.

"The Fran Preve article "The Numbers Game" said that engine production was 2 to 5 percent over car production . He was talking about regular production engines and cars and he must not have known the COPO 427 car production numbers at the time of the article (1987)."

What difference would it would have made if he did know? Fran clearly states where he got the data:

“The numbers are taken directly from Chevrolet’s Summary of Engines Shipped.”

Why do you continually second-guess his data, obtained directly from Tonawanda production records by an employee, 18 years after production?

“…and the Fran Preve numbers come close but there are questions on the accuracy…”

Who knows better than an insider with complete access to production data?

Here is a COPO Camaro build record for a car shipped to Canada. Lists L78, 9561, no Z27. Why are there 1,066 more Camaro SS engines [L48, L34, L35, L78] listed in the T & B totals than total Z27 Camaro SS production?

[JoeC]

Originally Posted by William

Tonawanda did not produce engines on spec. They were built based on demand from vehicle assembly plants. Tonawanda built 1,373 Camaro/Chevelle L72 engines. For '700 total vehicles' to be correct means about 700 L72 engines were produced for no reason. Really think they did that?

I don’t know how good the Chevy inventory control system was in 1969 but Yes I do think the engine production number can go much higher than the car production on SHP engines. They have a history of doing that.

The SHP 427 Corvette engine production went much higher than car production numbers (from Corvette web sites so not sure if they are 100% but was same on different sites )

1967: 277 L88 engines , 20 L88 Corvettes built
1968: 615 L88 engines , 80 L88 Corvettes built
1969: 213 L88 engines , 116 L88 Corvettes built
1969 94 ZL1 engines , about 3 ZL1 Corvettes built.

They even built SHP engines for cars that were never built
14 Engines built for the 1971 LS6 Chevelle , no production cars built

Some engines have been found with COPO suffix codes and no vin number stamped on the block.

Tonawanda built a lot of engines and stamped many different suffix codes

12 engine suffix codes just for 1969 396 Camaro/Chevelle
18 engine suffix codes just for 1969 427 Passenger

suffix codes just for a Heavy Duty Clutch or a Police package

[JoeC]

Originally Posted by William

Why do you continually second-guess his data, obtained directly from Tonawanda production records by an employee, 18 years after production?

Fran Preve did a great job getting the Tonawanda engine numbers and we are lucky to have them but some of his assumptions were not accurate.

In the 1987 article "The Numbers Game" He states the numbers do not reflect actual COPO cars produced but he said that the engines are 2 to 5 percent over cars.
They were not 2 to 5 percent over cars, they were 2 to 22 percent over cars

ZL1 Camaro 88 engines to 69 cars = 22%
L72 Chevelle 358 engines to 323 cars (using RPOs) = 10%
L72 Camaro 1015 engines to 997 cars (using RPOs) = 2%


In the 1990s he made the calculation subtracting the RPO L78 and Z27 Z25 numbers and assumed that all remaining cars are COPO 427.
This calculation result shows 997 COPO L72 Camaros and 323 COPO L72 Chevelles.

This assumption may not be accurate because it is not known how Police, Export, other COPO, F&SO , or foreign assembly plant units can affect the numbers.

There was some info found on non-SS 396 Chevelles.
This showed that the assumption all remaining cars are COPO 427 may not be accurate

Attatced a pic of a 1969 Police Chevelle brochure showing a 396 325 HP option.

[bergy]

As supervisor on the charging floor of the Tonawanda Foundry, I also had supervisory responsibility over the briquetting operation. We would receive train car loads of iron borings from the Tonawanda Motor Plant and run them through briquetting dies to make them suitable for re-melting in the cupolas. One day, we received a complete ZL1 engine buried in the borings! It turned out that the 3rd shift clean up crew at the motor plant was dumping ZL1s on top of the borings in the rail car and covering them up. Then - over in the switch yard (off of Chevrolet property) - they would dig them out and take them. The whole operation was stopped and some employees got fired after we reported what we found in the rail car. No telling how many ZL1 engines they stole before the operation was stopped. Rumors in the plant indicated that it was going on for months, but certainly not every night.


Not sure if these engines were stolen before they were counted in production totals or after. I did reach out to Fran to discuss this issue before he died, but he didn't have much interest in the subject. I'm not sure when Fran was PM at Tonawanda. I was at a lot of meetings at the motor plant, but don't recall Fran.

Just offered this tid-bit to add confusion to the production totals!

[Mr70]

Wow,how complete were the ZL-1's?...air cleaner to oil pan to water pump?
And didn't some of the borings get inside the engine?