Restamping blocks??????????????

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Unless you personally purchased the car and have owned it since day one, then you cannot and should not use the term &quot;Born With&quot; unless you have a signed and notarized affidavit from the original owner</span>, and even in those cases, you really have no idea! So the best way to protect yourself is to make sure the seller is known and reputable, the car is known if possible .. (not a barn find) and all date codes, castings etc. match, however once again, if you did not personally buy the car brand new and confirm everything yourself, then you really have no way of knowing for sure. I purchase a lot of cars, and I always make sure all castings, etc, are correct, and that as much documentation is present as possible and the car is well known.

Just my 2 cents [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] </div></div>

I would take exception to that. As someone stated, &quot;knowledge is the key&quot;. I've been hired to tell people if their engine was the original or not because I have a very large sampling of original stampings. So, if I in fact happen to own a car with its original engine, purchased from the heir of the deceased original owner, then I feel perfectly safe in describing it as a born-with engine. Who do <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> hire to verify my claim?

I know this brings up notions of the fox guarding the hen house, but truth and my reputation are of utmost importance to me. Maybe that's why, given the information I have about certain cars, that I'm still broke.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img]

[RST]

[/quote]

I would take exception to that. As someone stated, &quot;knowledge is the key&quot;. I've been hired to tell people if their engine was the original or not because I have a very large sampling of original stampings. So, if I in fact happen to own a car with its original engine, purchased from the heir of the deceased original owner, then I feel perfectly safe in describing it as a born-with engine. Who do <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> hire to verify my claim?

I know this brings up notions of the fox guarding the hen house, but truth and my reputation are of utmost importance to me. Maybe that's why, given the information I have about certain cars, that I'm still broke.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] [/quote]

While you make some great points, if you state that it is the &quot;Born with Drivetrain&quot; that is based on your opinion and your educated assumption, but you really don't have proof other then your word and your research. I am perfectly comfortable with a person making a statement that, based on the engine stamping, castings, documentation, history, etc, it is believed to be the original born with drivetrain. I mean no disrespect what so ever and I am sure you are 100 times the expert I am on engine stampings etc, I am just stating facts and the facts are, that unfortunately it is virtually impossible to guarantee originality, trust me I wish it was, I have spent a lot of money on cars with the belief that I am purchasing numbers matching cars, and that is why this site is so very important to myself and us all. Experts like you and others that are on this site that have been a part of the hobby for many years help protect others like me. And you and the other experts here on the site can provide verification services as well as information on known cars that can keep this wonderful hobby clean and protected.

Hope to see you all at SCR18 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

[Verne_Frantz]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]

I would take exception to that. As someone stated, &quot;knowledge is the key&quot;. I've been hired to tell people if their engine was the original or not because I have a very large sampling of original stampings. So, if I in fact happen to own a car with its original engine, purchased from the heir of the deceased original owner, then I feel perfectly safe in describing it as a born-with engine. Who do <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I</span></span> hire to verify my claim?

I know this brings up notions of the fox guarding the hen house, but truth and my reputation are of utmost importance to me. Maybe that's why, given the information I have about certain cars, that I'm still broke.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] </div></div>

While you make some great points, if you state that it is the &quot;Born with Drivetrain&quot; that is based on your opinion and your educated assumption, but you really don't have proof other then your word and your research. I am perfectly comfortable with a person making a statement that, based on the engine stamping, castings, documentation, history, etc, it is believed to be the original born with drivetrain. I mean no disrespect what so ever and I am sure you are 100 times the expert I am on engine stampings etc, I am just stating facts and the facts are, that unfortunately it is virtually impossible to guarantee originality, trust me I wish it was, I have spent a lot of money on cars with the belief that I am purchasing numbers matching cars, and that is why this site is so very important to myself and us all. Experts like you and others that are on this site that have been a part of the hobby for many years help protect others like me. And you and the other experts here on the site can provide verification services as well as information on known cars that can keep this wonderful hobby clean and protected.

Hope to see you all at SCR18 [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] [/quote]

I do understand your point, but I don't think the &quot;proof&quot; you seek will ever be available for any car, unless by some chance someone took a photo of the deck stamp the day the car was delivered to compare to it today. The &quot;proof&quot; comes from knowledgeable people who inspect what is there and deem it to be original based on many factors. The age, condition, owner history etc are all put to the test to see if it appears to be unmolested. Restored cars are obviously the most difficult to document. Generally speaking, the worse the condition of the car, the easier it is to confrim originality.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

[Steve Shauger]

In my opinion if you have the experience, expertise and a data base of unrestored cars and stamping examples then you put yourself in a position to make an educated determination as to the validity of a cars stampings. Not every case is cut and dried, however if I certify or advertise a car as born with drivetrain, then I am absolutely sure of my finding.

I rather buy a car or component where the seller is stating born-with, because they are convinced because of their expertise or an expert they hired to make that statement of its originality. Is it an absolute, no, but then what is. There are a lot of variables and detective work that goes into validating a car or its components.

[RST]

[/quote]

I do understand your point, but I don't think the &quot;proof&quot; you seek will ever be available for any car, unless by some chance someone took a photo of the deck stamp the day the car was delivered to compare to it today. The &quot;proof&quot; comes from knowledgeable people who inspect what is there and deem it to be original based on many factors. The age, condition, owner history etc are all put to the test to see if it appears to be unmolested. Restored cars are obviously the most difficult to document. Generally speaking, the worse the condition of the car, the easier it is to confrim originality.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [/quote]

Understood and agree Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] Keep up the good work.

[Bill Pritchard]

Good Lord.....this topic has been previously discussed to death on this forum and many others, with absolutely no clear consensus of opinion. Where's the 'beating a dead horse' icon when we need it? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Woj]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Pritchard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good Lord.....this topic has been previously discussed to death on this forum and many others, with absolutely no clear consensus of opinion. Where's the 'beating a dead horse' icon when we need it? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] </div></div>

Amen. I guess it depends on what your definition of &quot;is&quot; is. Or something like that. Sheesh.

Phil W.

[mr 707]

you stamp numbers on the block your asking for legal trouble.

[SS427]

Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough.

[EZ Nova]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like many political issues if we just sweep them under the rug they just fester and never go away. With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized. That and many can be named so as to bring them to the forefront so that more people learn to shy away from them. Also we are helping to educate buyers as to what to look for when buying a car or at the very least attempt to show them how important it can be to hire a professional to inspect their car potentially saving them thousands of dollars. Personally I do not think this subject can be discussed enough. </div></div>

I agree. Just because we are &quot;in the know&quot; on this site, doesn't mean everyone out there is! Like SS said &quot;With many web sites constantly discussing this issue it is hoped that the people who are trying to fraud others will back down to some degree as they know they are being watched and scrutinized&quot;.

What's sad is, I'm just a guy from SW Ontario who likes cars, has a couple and a bit of knowledge I pick up along the way. I got into this heated discussion YEARS ago with a well known, high end dealer about a car from my home town. He did pretty much the exact same thing. Bought a car that I PERSONALLY knew, restored it, and was asking LARGE for a L78 1970 Nova, in fact, he turned down $78,000.00 I believe because he mentioned something along the lines of &quot;Where will you find a NUMBERS MATCHING restored L78 '70 Nova for that price. When I questioned him on the original motor, he said &quot;they found it in a nearby state&quot; and that it &quot;was authenticated&quot; by chevy GURU. Well we went back and forth for a bit and there was plenty on here questioning ME and my right to raise the question of this well respected dealer. WELL low and behold, the owner of the original engine showed up to support what I was told and stated he STILL HAD the engine, as well as documents and photos of the motor being PULLED from that car and going into his. The seller got quite after that.

I'm just bring to light that there seems to be more then a few holes in the whole deal, re-stamps and questionable scrap/wreaking yard body. And letting the &quot;buyer beware&quot; that this could possibly be a rebody restamp piece together car as I have spoken to the original owner who sold the car WITHOUT the original motor back in the '70's. And when he searched for the car, and found it had been scrapped, he went to the wreaking yard and the owner said &quot;they crushed it a few months ago&quot;???? But yet is shows up now, with &quot;numbers matching&quot; attached to it???

SHADY money hungry seller that is putting a bad light on our hobby.