70 Judge RAIV and V continuation

[Steve_Hoog]

Some interesting things in the The Big Little GTO by Albert Drake, page 142 and 143. Credits Joh MacDonald with killing the program. Several insights from George DeLorean, and substantialy more engines are around according to George than is typically talked about... It says John D left for Chevy in late 68, which it has been my understanding it was 69. Typos and errors can always be present.

[MotownMadman]

Guys,
It is hard to believe how much these Pontiac heads look like the Ford 302 Tunnel Port heads. It seems Pontiac "Borrowed" the idea from Ford, which doesnt make a lot of sense since Ford had problems with this head configuration in 1968. SCCA rules required any race application engine to be a street unit, although Ford had everyone convinced the Tunnel Port was being released to the public, even a magazine cover showed a street version testing against a Z28, Ford never actually released a street version due to ongoing problems with the head configuration for street use. The SCCA let Ford finish the season with the engine and that was it. They then went to the Boss engine. So why would Pontiac copy a design that proved to be troublesome for both street and racing applications? If anyone is interested I can post some photos of the Ford heads, with the exception of a small difference in exhaust port design they are almost identical.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

[Steve_Hoog]

Matt

Here's a quote from Ablert Drake's book, page 142:

"One of the Ford factory sponsored cars had a 427 built by Homan and Moody. Delorean (G), fascinated by this powerful, high revving and durable engine, persuaded the driver, Benny Parsons, to lend him the heads, valve train and camshaft. He took these to Pontiac engineers in charge of experimental engine development and they studied the parts closely. The result was Ram Air V."

[MotownMadman]

Steve,
The 427 Tunnel Port performed well as a race engine, but Fords first attempt at using the Tunnel Port design on a production street engine was the 302 in 1968. That is when all the problems had developed for street use. I would have thought that Pontiac would have taken notice to that, but possibly they already had the Pontiac V engine developed to the point of no return, based on the performance of the Ford 427 engine. For that design to work correctly it required huge cubic inches and high RPM which both the Ford 302 and Pontiac 400 were lacking for constant street use.
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

[John Glasgo]

I can say from experience that the RA 5 was not the dog that everybody acts like,the 69 GTO that i did with the 5 motor,stock GTO exhaust manifolds,2.5 kinked full exhaust system,4.88 gears ran a 12.4 at 111.00,this was in a concours show car.It pulled hard to 7000 rpm,i drove it once when i first finished it with no exhaust,and 2 foot dumps,that car flat out flew,the exhaust really hurt it.I have had every Pontiac motor made,the RA5 car was definetely the neatest.the biggest flaw with the motor was that the rods were junk,and most of them let go before the true potential of the motor was realized.

[tjs44]

John,I never meant to say the V is a dog.My motor is 446CI,9.5CR and makes 555HP at 6100 with a single 950 holley.I have had a few V motors on the dyno and they all gave up around 6100 with the factory single 4.The 2-4 tunnel ram pulled all the way to 6900.What I was saying is if you put the same setup with a RAIV head with the same flo numbers as the V head,the IV would make more HP.I have not done the compare my self,just from a eduacated guess.Tom

[DaJudge]

Please find attached a picture of the stamping on the front of my RA IV block. This is off a one owner fully documented car. This RA IV JUDGE is a Pontiac Michigan Car which is where the car in question is from. Take a look at the font of the stamping the W in the picture you show is not even close to the style of the font on my block. Look at the engine production serial number above as well. I know for a fact mine is correct the vin is on the block to the passneger side of the timing cover. The casting or part number for a RAM AIR V block is also different as well it is not shared with any 400 block Pontiac Manufactured.

I have been involved with Pontiacs for twenty years, besides the Crystal Turquoise Bobcat car I have only seen one other car with a Ram Air V in it. The owner was restoring a 69 Judge and it was of course Carousel Red. The owner must have wanted the ultimate Judge and found and installed a Ram Air V engine with all the right parts in it. Purely PMD out New Mexico did this car and it was very nice, I saw this car at Dennis Kirbans GTO reunion show that he sponsored years ago. That engine had the block casting numbers but did not have any other markings on it as I recall.

From all the GTO's the I have owned and seen, the stamp on that block does not look right. I have a very open mind to ideas and would love for this car to be a factory V car. But this motor was never emissions certified and the only way that I feel that motor got between those fender wells is by a mech at Knafel Pontiac. After all the research I have done regarding Pontiac GTO restoration and history all markers point to a dealer converted car unless there is a Proctecto Plate or build sheet that shows a RA V serial production code in it this car has to be seen as a dealer installed Ram Air V option. Which is not a bad thing.

The only question I have is why do you or someone else want to make this car something it is not? If Knafel dealer installed this engine that is great. He converted a IV car to a V car as an option.

[Jeff H]

Your picture was not attached to your post. I'm not a Pontiac person so I have no idea what their stampings look like. I agree that a dealer converted RA V is a very special car like the early Yenko's, Nickey, Dana cars. The date on the block and the engine production number should shed some light on the timing though.

[Steve_Hoog]

I thought we were just having a general discussion about RAV? I asked to drop the debate of the car for now, and I was trying to find out if codes are on other RAV blocks. If they are, maybe then go into the actual stamping style or who when and why. I don't know that you could compare this to a regular production block.

[lowmile]

Can anyone tell ME where the casting date is on a RA V is? It must be VERY difficult to find.