Judges

[StealthBird]

Granted, the 1970 RAIII and 455 are close, but I believe the 455 had the edge. There weren't very many original road tests comparing the two, but from what I have:

1970 GTO Judge(RAIII), 4-speed, 3.55 posi, 14.77 @ 94.42 mph
1970 GTO (RAIII), 4-speed, 3.90 posi, 14.60 @ 99.55 mph
1970 GTO 455, Turbo 400, 13.98 @ 101.88 mph
1970 GTO 455, 4-speed, 3.31 non-posi, 15.0 @ 96.5 mph
1970 GTO 455, Turbo 400, 3.55 posi, 14.76 @ 95.94 mph

The big difference here is that all 3 of the 455 cars tested had a/c, and the 455 car that ran 15.0 even had p/w and p/dl, and was a peg-legger. The 400 RAIII's tested were pretty standard, no a/c or other weight related problems. The 14.60 turned in by the 70 RAIII above was after an entire morning of tuning (the car ran consistent high 14's until then).

Pontiac marketed the 1970 455 as a cruiser, not a 1/4 miler, but of the 455's that were tested, even with a/c and loaded up with options, still were comparable to the RAIII.

Go figure, I forgot about the 68-1/2 RAII's. How embarrassing, one of my favorite powerplants too. Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

[442w30]

That's ok, I had a hard time shedding amyl nitrate.

The 13-sec 455 test you have was probably in the 1970 Hi Performance Cars Yearbook. I wouldn't put much credence in this. What about the real world? I think the RAIII has a slight edge. It also was available with digger gears, while the 455 was not, I believe.

[StealthBird]

[ QUOTE ]
The 13-sec 455 test you have was probably in the 1970 Hi Performance Cars Yearbook. I wouldn't put much credence in this. What about the real world? I think the RAIII has a slight edge. It also was available with digger gears, while the 455 was not, I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, no steep gears for the 455, but as we know, the Pontiac 455 liked the mid 3-series gears the best.

The 13 second 455 GTO time listed above was actually from a 4 way shootout from the short lived magazine called Hot Cars. This 1970 test ran a Chevelle LS6, Stage 1 GS, 442 W-30, and a 455 GTO. The magazine ripped the GTO for being fat and overated, and they were disappointed that there wasn't a 455 RAIV from Pontiac when the other makes had stepped up their powerplants for 1970. Still, the tame 455 GTO, with a/c, was only a tenth behind the W-30 442, which had manual steering, manual brakes, and a 3.91 gear.

In the real world, I still feel the 70 455 had the edge over the RAIII, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. It would be close enough that it would come down to drivers and tuning, even lane conditions. But I feel the extra 55 cubes, and extra torque, would put a fender or two on the RAIII.

[Steve_Hoog]

I have to back StealthBird on this.

[442w30]

Most of the old road tests still show the RAIII having better times overall. And go to the Pure Stock races and you'll see the RAIII cars turning better times.

What were the times that all the cars turned in Hot Cars? I used to have an issue or two but they were not as interesting as Cars magazine.

[Steve_Hoog]

I dunno, those 55 cubes make a big difference. Not that a 400 won't run, but for raw power the 455 seems the easy winner. I say that not for what rolled off the assembly line in 1970, but what I have done at the track.

A bare stock 455 with some 350 6X heads and a medium cam, will propel most led sleds to a 12 second time. The 70 455 had a point of compression on the 6X head set up, that is just more horsepower.

[StealthBird]

Well, I guess if the old road tests don't hold much weight, I would place the validity of the Pure Stocks races FAR lower when looking at how these cars originally stacked up to each other. The mega-buck, professionally built, flyweight rotating assembly cars we see today, with scienced-out suspensions and hundreds of hours of dyno time, are a far cry from how these cars ran in their day.

The differences between the 70 RAIII and 70 455 are marginal at best. Minor head differences (same flow, different cc's, similar compression), 068 cam (on M/T 455), same intake, etc. For my money, I'll go with the 55 extra cubes and more torque of the 455.

For pure power at the Pure Stocks, I'd go with a Studebaker.

[tjs44]

the only rub IMHO is hooking up the 455s with 70 vintage tires.In a straight out drag race showroom stock with a man trans the RA III MAY have a advantage.Auto cars 50-50.With some suspension work and wide sticky tires I go with the 455.Tom

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
I would place the validity of the Pure Stocks races FAR lower when looking at how these cars originally stacked up to each other. The mega-buck, professionally built, flyweight rotating assembly cars we see today, with scienced-out suspensions and hundreds of hours of dyno time, are a far cry from how these cars ran in their day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take this the wrong way, Mike, but I gotta object! I was the 3rd quickest car on elimination day in Stanton this fall (12.3s @ 113+) and it's built NOTHING like you describe. Our rotating assembly is the original '69 parts except for the pistons, and my pushrods are the only non-GM stuff up top. Hours of dyno time? I wish!! Trick suspension? I wouldn't exactly call a pair of leaf spring clamps "trick"! And I just took a quick peak at this fall's results...12 of the 13 quickest cars in Stanton were "Certified Stock" cars meaning they were tore down prior to the event and thoroughly measured/inspected. The only car in the top 13 this fall that wasn't "Certified Stock"...a black '68 RAII 'Bird (I believe Mino's old car). Now, I'm not insinuating anything about that car, but the other 12 cars have been torn down & documented in magazines the same as Mino's car. Believe me, when I started running our Camaro in the class in '99 I was running low 13s and said there's NO WAY any of those other cars should run quicker than that! I mean, I was in a Yenko Camaro! Needless to say, I was taught a lesson REALLY quickly! But over the years, I've learned the value of "careful assembly, careful blueprinting, and attention to detail". It actually IS important to sweat the details!

[StealthBird]

Rob, I think we missed 4th gear in this discussion! I wasn't ragging on any of the Pure Stock Certified guys, a lot of work went into those cars. I said that the way the cars run TODAY do not reflect how they ran back THEN.

Today, maximizing them through matching the chamber cc's, shimming valve springs, jetting the carb, ignition curve kits, leaf spring clamps, loosening up the sway bar bolts, factory appearing front shocks that are soft (90/10), filling your spare tire with water (my personal favorite) for more traction, high flow mufflers, 2.5" exhaust, X-pipes, K&N filters, etc., are all ways to make an old car run faster, and shows the potential of that car, but not representative of how they ran when new. I believe all of these things are legal under Certified Stock.

Since the shortblocks aren't torn down, it makes you wonder if anyone is running aluminum connecting rods, lightweight race cranks, and lightened wrist pins?

As for dyno time, I have read in several posts both here an on the Buick V8 site where people have said "they're hitting the dyno to test their new combo." Not exactly backyard mechanics, but if you have the means, you may as well use it!

But (and that's a big butt) I definately ain't arguing! As you know, I am a huge fan of "stealth" technology, and I think the Pure Stocks are great! My point is that the et's and speeds being generated by the Pure Stock cars today (or Certified Stock) are not representative of what these cars ran when they were new, or heck, even what these cars ran in the Pure Stocks 5 years ago!

Could you imagine a car magazine back in 1970 taking a brand new LS6 Chevelle from Chevrolet, and running 12.40's? On stock rubber? With factory closed exhaust? Or how about explaining to another car magazine that the 1970 Oldsmobile W-31 that they tested last month, which ran impressive 14.60's, somehow managed to run 12.8's today, and embarrass a whole slew of 426 Hemi cars?

I noticed, when reviewing the Pure Stock results, that the top two cars ran over 116 mph, and no one below them even ran 115, or 114 mph! These guys are making some serious power. But I also noticed your Yenko is 200 pounds heavier than Pete Simpson's COPO. Both cars are automatics, so how does Pete shave that much weight off a 69 Camaro? If your Yenko weighed what his car weighed, you'd be fightin' for the #1 spot!

If we should move this discussion to another thread, please let me know.