I know you guys will tell me like it is ..

[king_midas]

[ QUOTE ]
No matter what the idiot who is posting that auction says, it is a Federal Felony to rebody a car: i.e. remove the VIN, no matter if it is still attached to a couple pounds of old metal, and attach it to a body it was not originally assigned to.

Let me make it a bit clearer:

THIS VIN IS FLAGGED AND IF THE CAR IS "REBODIED," IT WILL BE SEIZED AND THE OWNER WILL BE ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH MULTIPLE FELONIES, ALONG WITH ANYONE WHO HELPED HIM CUT AND PASTE THE VIN ONTO ANY OTHER BODY.

Hopefully this is clear to everyone now.

If you want to buy that carcass and try to restore what is left of it into a new car, you can try and do that, but dont even think of removing that VIN and mounting it on another body. Personally (and in my legal opinion), I think you would be crazy to attempt it. You dont need the legal headaches following you, and the car, forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm hoping njsteve can clarify what the difference is between this, and a car that needs to have every panel replaced due to rust and/or accident damage.

I'll bet that 90% of the cars owned by members on this board have had panels replaced and/or are not wearing the original drivetrain and/or have had major components restamped. So, what's the difference?

I think for you to go out and get into somebody's business is really just plain sad. So what if someone is going to buy that car and "rebuild" it. Why do you care? If anything, it's another Camaro out there, so it keeps visibility for yours and mine in the form of advertising.

I find your lecture on fraud to be preposterous. Really, I'm sure our penal system needs to have old guys that have rebodied cars in federal prison with murderers.

Maybe you should focus your efforts on some real criminals-- Like our current presidential administration...

[Canucklehead]

If i were you i would find something in better shape, by the time you screw with this heap your going to be into it for more than its worth. Then your still left with a questionable car at best!

[njsteve]

Here are the legal facts, not opinions on some of the above comments:

1) A VIN tag is an absolutely sacred item under the law. You can change quarter panels, roofs, subframes, engines, rears, transmissions, tissue dispensers, etc., to your hearts content but NEVER mess with a VIN tag. Heck, you can even swap out your cowl tag listing the original color and options on your car and you wont face criminal charges. (You might get sued in a civil court later if you sell the car to someone and misrepresent it as something it isn't but that is not the same a criminal charges. (civil court = money penalty, versus criminal court = jail time penalty)

2) If you took that 1/3 of a car and welded on new parts to it, it would be OK under the laws of the state and federal system. You may have a problem with the title not being flagged as a salvage title but that is for another discussion.

3) If you took the VIN tag off of that 1/3 of a car and riveted it on to a donor body you are committing a crime at both the state and federal level.

4) Yes, there are a lot of body shops that do cab swaps when a truck is rusty but they do this out of ignorance of the law not necessarily out of criminal intent. But the fact is it still violates the VIN laws. There are no "VIN swaps for restoration purposes" exceptions in these laws, though that might be a perfect issue for SEMA and other big lobbying entities to take up with Congress. (When Congress isn't so busy not doing other stuff and blaming each other across the aisle for not, not doing what they are supposed to not be doing)

5) I dont write the laws, I am just telling you what the facts are. You are correct in thinking that there are probably thousands of these cars out there and thousands more being done while we sit here and type away, but the fact is those cars are ticking time bombs in a criminal/legal sense. They can be siezed as contraband items at any time by any law enforcement officer who has reasonable suspicion that it was a VIN swap. Imagine buying a car, going to the DMV inspection lane and having the inspector just happen to be a Yenko.net and ebay officianado who has kept a list of these types of hulks and VINs selling on ebay...just waiting for the day when one of these "finished" cars pulls into his stall. I know of a couple of guys that keep tabs on ebay auctions just for this purpose. You may go home at the end of the day but the car will stay there and most likely get crushed at the end of the legal proceedings: VIN swapped cars are never eligible for public auction based on safety issues. In the end you're out a car and will have to try and sue the guy you bought it from -good luck on recovering anything if he was a "backyard restoration technician."

6) As for the NICB not having all records, that is correct. They have records for the various plants that supplied them with their shipping records. Some plants did not have the records so they are not in their system.

7) Oh, and by the way, my lecture on fraud may be preposterous but that doesnt make it untrue. They dont send the Chop Shop/VIN Swap guys to the same facilities as murderers. They end going to lower level security institutions and end up playing tennis at minimum security camps with corrupt congressmen and senators.

[Mr70]

This from an 8 track tape cloner..

[budnate]

[ QUOTE ]
This from an 8 track tape cloner..

[/ QUOTE ]

[bulletpruf]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are the legal facts, not opinions on some of the above comments:

1) A VIN tag is an absolutely sacred item under the law. You can change quarter panels, roofs, subframes, engines, rears, transmissions, tissue dispensers, etc., to your hearts content but NEVER mess with a VIN tag. Heck, you can even swap out your cowl tag listing the original color and options on your car and you wont face criminal charges. (You might get sued in a civil court later if you sell the car to someone and misrepresent it as something it isn't but that is not the same a criminal charges. (civil court = money penalty, versus criminal court = jail time penalty)


[/ QUOTE ]

Some states will allow you to remove a VIN tag if necessary to repair a car. Believe some require you to have a state trooper or similar official there to verify.

You're correct that federal law also addresses VIN removal; have also looked that up, but don't recall what the exact prohibitions were.

Anyone purchasing this car or a similar one would need to be familiar with the ramifications of state and federal law before purchasing a car like this one. Certainly think it would be permissible to build a car around the remnants of this one, assuming the VIN tag was not removed from the cowl of this car and placed on a "donor" body.

Scott

[RamAirDave]

If you ask me, I do not see a "car" in this auction. Just a part of a car with the tags/numbers attached to it.

If someone is looking to build a car, there are thousands of better options out there to choose from. In this case, it is just to build a "real" BB car. If it were a non X-code, 44 or even 11, it would be scrap metal. All someone would want are the tags and hiddens.

I know there isnt a clear-cut line about what is considered a car and what isnt. But this one isnt near that line IMO.

[70CitrusZ]

Greetings,
This is a bit of a rant so please excuse me if it doesn't meet with your approval.
IMHO If you build a car off of that chunk of scrap, its still a car, and still a valid vin and even though its arguably not as desireable as one that "just" needed floors, trunk, quarters, fenders,and roof panels,and dash top and door skins (which is common and needed for most 1969 Camaros being restored nowadays), and by the way,not frowned upon.

Whats the difference? Unless your car is a complete original rust free example it is in some degree "re-bodied" anyway.
People will know the history of this vin now since its advertized on a national basis, so nobody will be able to fool anyone(read actual enthusiast or one that pays an actual enthusiast to check out the history) who does their homework on this car.

Is it sad? yes. Illegal? doubtful. Studid of the owner to cut off and chuck the rest of the car? yes, but in the eighties, when muscle car values were realistic, and nobody was worried about being finacially ruined by a crappy purchase of a musclecar, re-bodies were common place as opposed to trying to find nos body panels. It was cheaper and easier to find a clean body to use off another car. Most people didn't have the capability or parts availability for panel replacements at home, so doing a body swap was cheaper and easier. The cars weren't worth enough to justify the body shop charges involved in multi panel replacent.
Body shops did and continue to use scrap bodies to re-body damaged cars. I think how it works in body shops is as long as you have the paperwork and ownership on both cars involved you should be free from legal problems,but morally and in the interest of fair play, one should disclose the extent of the body panel replacement to the purchaser.
Maybe someone from the forum is in the bodyshop business and can enlighten us on how its done, but I think there is a requirement of paperwork of some kind..

The transferral of vins is only illegal because of auto theft reasons. Period. The government could really care less if your car was originally a 250 six or a ZL1 model for vin purposes. What they DO care about is a STOLEN car being re-vinned to hide its origins. The only other reason to get in hot water would be in the case of fraud charges, which I believe would be a civil case between seller and buyer of the vehicle if proven to be sold on false pretences. So, the only people who DO care about legitimate rebodies are people spending large amounts of coin for collector cars.
By the letter of the law, you can't swap vins. so, you could be in some paperwork tangle, but when the dust settles, I highly doubt someone gets thrown in jail for swapping vin tags between 2 cars HE owns and has the documents for.

Just to be clear !!this is ONLY MY OPINION, and is not stated as anything else but an opinion. I'm NOT a lawyer NOR am I a government official, so don't do anything based on this opinion!!!.
I get a little tired of rants of inpurities in what amounts to a grossly impure hobby in this day and age. With all the money involved people are willing to go to great lengths to produce "numbers matching", and fake cars etc. The sad thing is, its fueled by the people willing to fork out huge cash for these collector cars when they themselves aren't even enthusiasts, just rich people with a hankerin for whats in vogue right now. Personally It doesn't bother me to see a few of these idiots get burned. Maybe then the muscle car hobby can return to the real enthusiasts. Lets face it, if the values of these cars were lower, the people who care, would know what they are looking at anyway.
Also, to add more fuel to the fire, I'd be really surprised if more than 5 or 10% of all existing muscle cars are original and numbers matching to any reasonable degree, with some of the most desireable being the worst offenders.

This hobby is currently easily one of the most corrupt, and its definately a buyer beware situation. Heres the safe bet. Assume the worst of any vehicle purchased, and don't buy muscle cars as investments or trophies,spend the time to research a car before buying, and last but not least, buy them because you love them.

Mark

[Fast67VelleN2O]

Mark very well said!

[YenkoYS-199Stinger]

I will add a 2nd to what Mark said.

---------------------
Chris
1966 Yenko Stinger YS-070
1967 Yenko Stinger YS-199
Southeast of Disorder