Barrett Jackson Las Vegas

[Les Quam]

There are no grey area's here this car appears to have the identity of another car. The person who sold those documents and hidden cowl VIN is still displaying them on his websight. The US attorney's office will prosecute the case if the investigation confirms that these allegations are true not a state prosecutor since the car traveled over state lines. As a former prosecutor I can tell you this case is simple and a rookie could try this case.

The experts opinion would only shield a "seller in good faith" not the person who restored the car or a dealer who sold the car knowing it had its identity switched.

Even the worlds best expert cannot determine if a car has been altered in this fashion. Vehicle identity alterations to this level with this kind of documentation defy experts discovery.

I have never met or spoke too or retained Jerry Macneish but I have read his books and know him by reputation and his reputation is that he is one of the worlds foremost experts on Camaro's. He is not to blame in any fashion for another persons criminal acts of fraud. He like the buyer this weekend is a victim of the fraud. If fraud is established.

[Mark_C]

Theres at least 4 parties involved here. No. 1 - the buyer who really is only an interested party and had no part in how this problem came about, No. 2 - the restorer/rebuilder, No. 3 - the guy he bought the shell from with the VIN and tags already attached, and of course No. 4 - "Gary" who sold the tags and paper work in the first place. There may be others between people 3 and 4 as well. The tags were originally going to be sold in April of 2004 (don't actually know if they were or not, but I do know they were removed from the car along with a chunk of the cowl - the pictures verify this), and the (a) shell with those tags reappeared on Ebay in October of 2007, and the "most original ever" Z28 reappeared around June or July of this year at Carlise, and then at this auction. Obviously person number 3 (or maybe someone between him and "Gary") is the one who affixed the tags to the new shell.

The seller/restorer of this car might get off the hook because of that sequence of events, but he's going to be out a ton of money if law enforcement seizes the car.

You don't have to dig up anything to determine if the car has its original shell or not. Every stamped peice of sheetmetal on a camaro contains a plant code and a date code on it. For example the firewall body mount cage has at least 3 stamps on them consisting of a letter and 2 digit number indicating the week of the year it was stamped out. All you need to do is find a few and compare it to the build time of the car. If theres a big difference in dates then the parts of the shell don't belong with the tags.

[camarojoe]

Just a guess, but I'd bet that a BUNCH of the street rods and custom cars that pass through BJ have VINs that aren't original to the actual car rolling across the block if anyone were actually to look into it.

[chevelleheart]

Not to change the topic but is there any more discussion's on the red LS6 Chevelle Convertible that went across the block on Sat night that Ron also purchased? Just curious?

[Bill Pritchard]

I have seen no other substantial discussion either here or on the Chevelle website. The Chevelle's issues pale in comparison to the Camaro, so it's probably nothing but an afterthought at this point.

[PeteLeathersac]

Regardless of who's going to take a fall here, BJ may not be all innocent even if they have written provisions in their auction agreements to escape legal problems?.
If failing to do their utmost to protect both buyers and sellers of cars that may have a shady history has been their choice, poor attendance and sales at future BJ auctions could result in a worse penalty...a financial one?.

Any auction house who has true concerns for their buyers and sellers should post Vins of upcoming cars w/ ample time ahead of the auction date to allow the collector car community to gather any relevant facts together and present them before the car crosses the block..
If any auction house chooses not to do this and/or heed any serious concerns raised before sale, that's their choice and they may have to live w/ the long term resulting financial losses if the facts come out after the sale?.

Obviously no one should condemn Jerry M. without his report being displayed..
He's not a stupid man and his concerns for this specific car also disclaimer for circumstances such as this on any car he inspects is most likey included in his report?.

If this case is as clear cut as Les Q. above seems to feel, it could be the beginning of many more to come?.
With plenty of similar situations sitting in garages all over the world there's no doubt lots of people sitting on the edge of their seats watching what unfolds here?.
Best of luck to any true innocents that get caught up in the crossfire!.


~ Pete

[chevelleheart]

True Bill P. ! I was wondering if anyone else had seen the car , paperwork etc as I was having doubt's about my impressions on the car and if anyone knew for sure ,...I'd appreciate a private email with there thoughts ??( [email protected])

[TDW]

I read on the Team Camaro site that the report from MacNeish is 3 pages long. It isn't his job to tear the car apart to look at all the date stamps and the hidden VIN stamps. He does a visual inspection of the TT, VIN plate and major components. It would be impossible for him to disect every car he inspects. If the car in question had a factory issued TT,VIN plate, rivets in the TT are genuine and there is no evidence of tampering to the firewall, should MacNeish go any farther in looking for a rebody? Or anything for that matter? I don't see how the "Expert got fooled" is the right statement to make here.

[SD 396]

Maybe the "experts" or appraisers for that matter need to have a disclaimer in their report to indemnify them from verification of original body, block, trans, etc. and potential legal proceedings. What more can they do than verify what they can see on the surface? Sure you can get a scope in some hidden places but some changes are very difficult if not impossible to detect. Where does this leave the uneducated buyer or owner? I research all the cars I buy before hand but I am sure that an owner isn't going to let me rip the whole car apart before I buy it.

[kwhizz]

[ QUOTE ]
I read on the Team Camaro site that the report from MacNeish is 3 pages long. It isn't his job to tear the car apart to look at all the date stamps and the hidden VIN stamps. He does a visual inspection of the TT, VIN plate and major components. It would be impossible for him to disect every car he inspects. If the car in question had a factory issued TT,VIN plate, rivets in the TT are genuine and there is no evidence of tampering to the firewall, should MacNeish go any farther in looking for a rebody? Or anything for that matter? I don't see how the "Expert got fooled" is the right statement to make here.

[/ QUOTE ]


Think about it.........If Jerry was to really "Certify" beyond any doubt..........Is that really possible.........He's brought a "Paper Trail" Numbers car.....Would the owner allow someone to take the car down to the point of removing the paint and Primer to check for any apparent deceptive metal working in the Hidden Vin Area's.........I don't think so....So......In that Case, How is anything validated anymore.........I heard of a ZL-1 that is being rebodied where the restorer (Owner???) found an old timer who came in to Hammer Weld the hidden vin #'s in to be non detectable.........Again.....The "Publically" known real cars have probably the Best Validation.......The Cars that fall out of the Sky after all these years are the ones that "Really" need to be looked at Closer.....
Are they what they are.........Or......What the Owner wants them to be.........With the Legal Exposure as it is today......Who could or would ever "Validate" 100% that it is anything other than what the Car "Appears" to be....

Just my $.02

Ken