New Hemmings Cover

[69SSZL1]

Don't shoot the messenger!

[wagonman]

Hello,

and thanks for the kind words and not so kind words.

I would like to simply voice my opinion and reply to some of yours.

"Dont shoot the messenger!!!" very well put.HMM didnt build the car,i did.
In the beggining,i started out building a car that i always
wanted.Simple enough right? I love convertibles.I have always collected and restored them.I also wanted a dual carb car.So this camaro came along.Recently i found that chevy had a crossram intake.I must have lived under a rock.

Anyway,i started to build a convertible with a crossram and
learned that chevy actually made one!A million dollar plus
car in todays market.A car I shall never afford in this lifetime.

So i made my own!!! I wanted to make it as close to perfect as possible.Numbers date coded parts etc...you know the drill.I found that i can take it a step further......paperwork,pop etc....Since i would never own the original why not?

Then i found out why,after i displayed my cars doc's for the first time i got an "ear full" But what's done is done.I went to a few shows w/o displaying the paperwork.I learned how it is "tabo"to engage in such practice.Which i completely agree.Then i decided to display my Z/28 Convertible with all it's glory.With all doc's once again.But this time,openly and honestly admitting its fake.Not that i was going to try to pass it off as real before.And to let all to know this can be done.

You see,the thing is i'm the messenger.If it was me,my car,or the article that informed you of this practice then i'll consider myself successful.We now know that fake doc's,protect-o-plates etc.can and are being made...
IS IT A SURPRIZE TO YOU? surely not.

You guys are the experts right? But should this knowledge only be spread among yourselves? I dont think so.Do any of you guys have fake cars that you need to disclose? Have any of you purchased any of these fake docs your self? HMMM.....Now i can understand why you may be upset.

If anything i'm the only one to come forward with this
pratice."HEY GUESS WHAT,THIS CAR ISNT REAL!"
You should praise me.Unfortuanately some may see this and
decide to do it themselves.Ok i understand there point.But they can learn this anywhere from books or internet.Not from just my car.

Ultimately if everybody knows,such as buyers,sellers,dealers and builders,then the effectiveness of fake doc's will diminish.Making your guys happier,right?

Now,as far as Muscle car of The Year award.come on guys! where does it say it has to be a REAl car? who dug that one up? It simply has to fall within their criteria.

Also why cant this car be on the cover of Hemmings Muscle Machines? because it'fake? Have all the cover cars been real? Has every car in HMM been completely numbers matching totally original?HMM totally proves the fact that it's a counterfeit convertible....

[Mr70]

My 3¢
I think you did a very nice job on a very well thought out car that you always wanted to own and enjoy.I would love to put that top down & drive that to any local Illinois cruise on any summer evening and enjoy it for what it is,not for what it's trying to be.
I could see how it's disappointing to some as it appears you've taken it a step further beyond the daily enjoyment line and now entered a misleading mentality.Unfortunately when you show honest people what was done,you're also teaching dishonest people what can be done,intended or not.
The muratic acid/saline solution process & Flint block syntax,along with the doctored paperwork seem to be the most talked about,up till midnight,head scratching,red flag of your entire ensemble that I see as taking the spotlight away from what the vehicle actually is and was built for.
The part where you state you won't disclose who made the documents,sounds like you might have known this was coming as well.
You say you wanted to show what could be done,and you have with great detail but personally I would stamp FAKE over the Flint pad syntax,destroy all the homemade paperwork,photograph their charred remains and display only the original unaltered few remaining documents that came with the RS convertible originally.
That would probably garnish more respect and say the same thing more subtly then the phoney docs ever did when displayed next to the vehicle.
That's a beautiful homemade car you've created..enjoy it!

[njsteve]

I believe the issue people have is that you created counterfeit documents. That is the problem. Yes, there are cars with counterfeit docs, and VIN swaps, and all sorts of shady baggage out there. But when you proudly display the fact that you have had these docs created for your car, that raises the hackles on a large percentage of people out there who place a high value on authenticity. It tarnishes an otherwise masterful piece of automotive artwork.

This reminds me of the defense that real counterfeiters try to use (unsuccessfully, I might add): "I'm just making a copy of a Van Gogh, or a $100 bill, or..."

If you put the original artist's name on the bottom, i.e., Van Gogh, then it makes it a criminal act.

If you used your own name, that's a little different. For example, if your name is Bob Smith and you put "Bob Smith" on the bottom of your "Van Gogh" then it is obvious to all, now and in the future, that it is not a counterfeit. In this case, you could have put your name as the selling dealer, salesman, buyer, etc, not actual persons and businesses, then it would be obvious to all, it was not counterfeit.

I am not saying that what you did is a crime (It applies only to specific items like currency or if you tried to pass it to a buyer representing it as real) but when you make up documents that have an original dealer instead of your own name, it turns into an avalanche down the slippery legal slope.

By the way, cudos on not changing the VIN tag. If you had, and then had your unnamed associate make up "new old paperwork" to match it, you both would have graduated into committing several federal felonies including Conspiracy, altering/removing/defacing a VIN number, mail fraud and wire fraud.

It's a beautiful car, and you've done a great job building it, but if it were me, I'd get rid of those "documents" and enjoy the car for what it is: a car you built to satisfy your own personal wishes of having a 68 302 ragtop. You should have the right to enjoy it without the headaches and rumors associated with the NOP (new old paperwork).

[Born30YrsLate]

Some may also be wound up about the fake docs because some of the original docs to real car were stolen a few years back...and to my knowledge have not resurfaced?

[Charley Lillard]

I have seen the car at a car show with all it's paperwork. You may tell a few people that come up and ask about it that it is a fake but 99% of the people walk by see the paperwork and assume it is real. On two different threads I think I suggested that you also put a sign up stating the paperwork is fake. I think my suggestion was ignored both times. That leads me to believe your motives are other than educating the public as you would like us to believe.

[wagonman]

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen the car at a car show with all it's paperwork. You may tell a few people that come up and ask about it that it is a fake but 99% of the people walk by see the paperwork and assume it is real. On two different threads I think I suggested that you also put a sign up stating the paperwork is fake. I think my suggestion was ignored both times. That leads me to believe your motives are other than educating the public as you would like us to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charley Lillard,

I'm sorry if you thought i ignored your previous post.That was not the case.I simply chose not to reply to them in an open public forum.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.........

Thank you........

[wagonman]

I think the Hemmings Muscle Machines cover will explain it all....

ONE OF NONE....

I will display this at any future car shows.

[1969l78]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the issue people have is that you created counterfeit documents. That is the problem. Yes, there are cars with counterfeit docs, and VIN swaps, and all sorts of shady baggage out there. But when you proudly display the fact that you have had these docs created for your car, that raises the hackles on a large percentage of people out there who place a high value on authenticity. It tarnishes an otherwise masterful piece of automotive artwork.

This reminds me of the defense that real counterfeiters try to use (unsuccessfully, I might add): "I'm just making a copy of a Van Gogh, or a $100 bill, or..."

If you put the original artist's name on the bottom, i.e., Van Gogh, then it makes it a criminal act.

If you used your own name, that's a little different. For example, if your name is Bob Smith and you put "Bob Smith" on the bottom of your "Van Gogh" then it is obvious to all, now and in the future, that it is not a counterfeit. In this case, you could have put your name as the selling dealer, salesman, buyer, etc, not actual persons and businesses, then it would be obvious to all, it was not counterfeit.

I am not saying that what you did is a crime (It applies only to specific items like currency or if you tried to pass it to a buyer representing it as real) but when you make up documents that have an original dealer instead of your own name, it turns into an avalanche down the slippery legal slope.

By the way, cudos on not changing the VIN tag. If you had, and then had your unnamed associate make up "new old paperwork" to match it, you both would have graduated into committing several federal felonies including Conspiracy, altering/removing/defacing a VIN number, mail fraud and wire fraud.

It's a beautiful car, and you've done a great job building it, but if it were me, I'd get rid of those "documents" and enjoy the car for what it is: a car you built to satisfy your own personal wishes of having a 68 302 ragtop. You should have the right to enjoy it without the headaches and rumors associated with the NOP (new old paperwork).

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well said

[PeteLeathersac]

What great comments...I especially like the burn the documents idea!!!

As I stated in a previous post, I have trouble understanding how if the Wagonmeister has true concerns for those who may get shaken on cars w/ similar 'pedigrees', why be so clandestine about where the fictional POP's etc were obtained?.

Yes everyone's free to do as they choose w/ their own cars but personally I can't help but wonder why any car w/ restamps and fake documents (admitted or not) keeps appearing on this of all sites?.
Also why when this car makes appearances here is anyone surprised some are opposed to it?.

Seriously, athough there's some here who are Ok w/ BS documents, tags and restamps, one of the main reasons I enjoy it here is I know of no other site where like-minded knowledgable enthusiasts have always been against the very thing threads like this seem to be condoning?.

No argument the car itself is cool and the Wagoneer may even be the greatest guy, but if in any way we're starting to accept and praise BS documents, tags and restamped cars here, that's a very slippery slope and concerning for what I understood this site has always solidly represented and stood for more than any other?.


~ Pete