russo and steel chop job camaro copo

[Zedder]

Swapping VINS is illegal in Ontario, Canada....

[EZ Nova]

[ QUOTE ]
Swapping VINS is illegal in Ontario, Canada....

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I JUST SEEN that they, the "law makers", were just going to make it a law, as of now it was not? I can't recall where I seen that, but it was within the last couple of weeks???

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Swapping VINS is illegal in Ontario, Canada....

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I JUST SEEN that they, the "law makers", were just going to make it a law, as of now it was not? I can't

recall where I seen that, but it was within the last couple of weeks???

[/ QUOTE ]

Let use a little common sense, changing a vehicles identification # has always been illegal. If it weren't the crooks would have a field day. Without some regulation/laws you could make any car what ever you wanted, the result would be the pedigree of our cars would be lost and the demise of the collector car hobby.

I believe you are possibly referring to trim tags.

[Mr70]

Where is the subject Camaro today?

[rich p]

I think the buyer has been playing in this business for a LONG time and knows the Games that are played at these Auctions !!!

[firstgenaddict]

No I am not willing to bet 15 years... I am playing Devil's advocate here... as the law facinates me.

Steve you said that a guy got arrested and charged, but also said that he was involved in Stolen cars. He did not meet any of the exemptions as he was altering, swapping, removing VINS to "further the theft" (I would be willing to bet that the stolen vehicles are what set the authorites in motion) I really do not think that the authorities could give a damn about a guy who owns two cars legitimatley and he decided to swap the vins from one to the other because one is irrepairable. I believe that the law was written in order to push widespread car theft and dismantling into Federal jurisdiction. I could be wrong here as well... but the statute is called
"Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act"

I am not a lawyer but the way I interpreted the statute is that VIN tampering is only illegal if it is done to conceal a previous crime (Theft).

I did notice the Repair/restoration statutory exemption clause, but the subsections appeared to be independent of one another, thus the reason I cited only the subheading I did.

I agree that there is no reason to "swap VIN's" from one vehicle to another.

I also see that it could be very difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a VIN was swapped and not just removed and re-installed... If the restorer... errr BUTCHER cited the Repair / restoration exemption and said that the firewall, dash, etc was damaged beyond repair and in order to fix it a section had to be cut from another car and welded in then the VIN had to re-installed in the Replaced section.

Now to take a different road to the same destination...
What if the car was clipped through the door posts and across the floor board and welded into another body.(basically using the bare minimum of the car with the VIN's)? Would this be considered VIN swapping or would it be considered a "repair"?
Half and Half piece togethers used to be common place in the 70's...

NOW 1 more...
Would decking an old VIN off and stamping a different VIN back on an Engine or Transmission fall under this? It appears as though it would if using your explanation of the law, because any obliteration or alteration of any VIN would be illegal whether someone was the legal owner of the part/ car etc.

Am I correct with this reasoning?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]


1) I am not a lawyer but the way I interpreted the statute is that VIN tampering is only illegal if it is done to conceal a previous crime (Theft).

2) I also see that it could be very difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a VIN was swapped and not just removed and re-installed... If the restorer... errr BUTCHER cited the Repair / restoration exemption and said that the firewall, dash, etc was damaged beyond repair and in order to fix it a section had to be cut from another car and welded in then the VIN had to re-installed in the Replaced section.

3) Now to take a different road to the same destination...
What if the car was clipped through the door posts and across the floor board and welded into another body.(basically using the bare minimum of the car with the VIN's)? Would this be considered VIN swapping or would it be considered a "repair"?
Half and Half piece togethers used to be common place in the 70's...

4) NOW 1 more...
Would decking an old VIN off and stamping a different VIN back on an Engine or Transmission fall under this? It appears as though it would if using your explanation of the law, because any obliteration or alteration of any VIN would be illegal whether someone was the legal owner of the part/ car etc.

Am I correct with this reasoning?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Lawyer? I am one (allegedly) and it doesn't matter what reason you do the VIN tampering for. It is something of an automatic pass/fail statute: if you do any of the above listed things, you committed the crime regardless of your reason (other than the listed exceptions, of course) The only intent required is the intent to physically alter the VIN, nothing more. In other words, you knew that you were cutting out that VIN and you didn't do it while sleepwalking or during an epileptic seizure.

2) The experts that are used by law enforcement are many times NICB automotive insurance fraud agents who are most often, retired car guys who know exactly what to look for. I've met a few and they know their sh$t.

3) Very slippery slope here. But your scenario would probably be seen as legal and not a VIN swap if the majority of the original car's chassis/body remained and just the rusted areas were replaced.

4) A legitimate decking process by an engine repair facility that grinds off the VIN as a byproduct of the machining process is not seen as VIN tampering. Stamping VINs on engines (like vintage Corvette "Restoration Engines") are something of an untested area. That is more for the civil liability arena (suing for $$$ damages if you're defrauded) than the criminal arena, since cars are traditionally register by chassis VIN and not engine VINs.

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