russo and steel chop job camaro copo

[427.060]

That's what I was thinking too Dave. Then again, maybe that's why he wanted to sell it.
james

[Racefan]

My question is this....SOMEONE out there performed an illegal act and got away with it. It seems that everyone is talking about it is the buyers fault or the sellers fault-- it really is the perpetrators fault. What is/can be done to track this back to the person who initiated the fraud?

Why not follow the lineage back to see who/where this thing was "restored" by?

I agree that the buyer has a responsibility to perform "due diligence". However, in this case someone (at some point) broke the law and made it a point to illegally mislead future buyers. Due diligence is checking to see if the VIN is a genuine COPO VIN, and it WAS (at one time atleast). It is a bit unreasonable in my opinion to expect the buyer to obtain information about illegal activites which were undertaken. Especially when dis-assembly was required.

It appears that Charley and Drew have a pretty good line of communication. Why doesn't Drew "float" these VINs by some of the accepted "experts" that I am sure he knows personally? Many from this site could have alerted R&S about this car just as easily as the buyer could have found the info. I would think this would make the auction house's lives much, much simpler?

[Charley Lillard]

I have heard from several people on this car. It was apparently built years ago by a guy in Toronto named Frank Macri ? Macri sold it to PhilS years ago. RichP listed for sale on this site for PhilS a couple years ago and I believe Mark Bulaw said he thought this sounded like a car out of Canada that was a rebody and that Macri used a very nice Z28 to build it into the car we are discussing. Phil then pulled the cowl panel and found where the vin had been welded. He did not pull the fender and heater box to confirm the other hidden vin. He sold it to Pat Joiner and told him of the suspected rebody and priced it under 100K to reflect the rebody issue. Joiner then sold it to Corvette Mike's but apparently they say they were not told about the rebody issue. I was also contacted by someone that owned the Z28 back in the early 70's that this COPO was made from and he confirms what I was told about the resto. PhilS tried to contact Macri after he found out but Macri would not return calls and it had been a few years. If anyone involved would like to chime in and clarify the stuff I just posted, please do. I am passing on info that I believe to be pretty close but if anyone has closer firsthand info please chime in so we can put this one to bed.

Someone should check for traces of a 4 speed shift hole. I remember mention of this from before but don't remember the details.


If I am wrong on any of this I will quickly apologise but I think I am pretty close.
As for Drew floating vins by experts he might get some info but who is going to hang their necks out to taint a car if they don't know firsthand. I know I don't need that kind of stress. I get enough crap here on this site because I seem to be the catch-all during disputes.

[Xplantdad]

Charley...thanks for being a voice of reason. There is a darn good reason you are a moderator...

[firstgenaddict]

I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other. NOW whether you would have a civil case against the person... that is a different story.

[Racefan]

So, given all the headaches that are caused by someone revealing the potential "issues" with a car....how can someone who doesn't frequent this site do the level of diligence to avoid these problems?

In my opinion (if all this is true)--
1) Buyer should look toward auction house for initial resolution (which has been done)
2) Auction house should look to the seller for any fees due under the contract (which it sounds like has been begun)
3) Seller should pay fees due
4) Seller then has to go back to the seller to him for restitution
5) So on, and so on, and so on back to the "restoration" took place

I would say that the first person to be hurt by this car is PhilS. By Charley's account (which by his admission may not be completely accurate), PhilS sold the car at a reduced rate based upon the information found. Should be easy to see (if the purchase price jumped significantly somewhere) who did not disclose the information, no?

Would be interesting to see what VINs are in the other locations......

Makes a guy like me not try so hard to put away enough money to buy a car like this. Kind of leaning toward only purchasing known "clones"...that way I can get the same sensations from driving a car like this without the risk of substantial loss of funds on something that isn't as advertised. This is precisely the reason I have never been remotely interested in Corvettes......damn shame, really!

[Racefan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think your statement is entirely true.... please follow this link VIN Fraud

Also, it appears that in 2005 Canada was trying to put more teeth into its laws concerning this. Not sure what the outcome was? Canadian VIN Fraid Info

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other. NOW whether you would have a civil case against the person... that is a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wanna bet 15 years of your life on that advice?

You are absolutely wrong on that one. It is illegal to swap a VIN from one body to another under Federal law. Period. It doesnt matter if you own both bodies.

The crime does not get prosecuted very often because there are far more dangerous Federal crimes out there getting the attention of Federal law enforcement, but when they do get prosecuted it is usually a high doller car...I think a ZL1 or a COPO would fit the bill perfectly.

I remember a case back '99 where an old guy was swapping VINs on Porsches to hide the fact they were wrecked and/or stolen. In addition to the cars, he got charged with 1 count of VIN tampering for every single piece of sheetmetal with a hidden VIN found on it during the search. The complaint was 20 pages long. He was facing about 15 years under the sentencing guidelines for the various charges, but he didnt serve any time "up here" though, -he died after pleading guilty.

The comical thing about the Federal system is that if you die before you are sentenced or while your case is on appeal, the conviction is thrown out on procedural grounds and it's like you were never charged in the first place.

So I guess he got to the "Firey Gates" with one less conviction on his resume.

[Born30YrsLate]

[ QUOTE ]

Someone should check for traces of a 4 speed shift hole. I remember mention of this from before but don't remember the details.


[/ QUOTE ]
This thread gives some info...PhilS made a short statement about the tunnel at the bottom of pg 1 of the topic. trans tunnel

[firstgenaddict]

VIN Fraud
Jun 11, 2007
As our classic cars gain in value, VIN fraud is becoming
more and more common. Several people have asked to read the laws concerning VIN numbers, counterfeit VIN tags and VIN fraud in general. VIN fraud is covered by Federal Law and every state has their own additional laws which in some cases are more strict that the Federal Laws.

Federal VIN Laws

From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 20, 2004]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 20, 2004 and December 23, 2004]
[CITE: 18USC511]

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

I read this to say if you are the legal owner that you can obliterate, remove, etc a VIN with no penalty. Opinions?