THE LAST??? 1967 Z-28

[Belair62]

Very interesting stuff.

[92646]

I agree, neat information.
Mark Sheppard

[70 copo]

William,

Thanks for the reply. Out of a total production of 220,906 cars you are saying that your determination is made based on a sampling of just over 200 VIN's after July?? So I would have to assume the D base has perhaps 1000 cars more or less in the entire D base?

This out of out of over 200,000 total units made in 1967.

So I guess we agree to disagree then? I am really going to keep this simple. You know photos are worth a alot and the photo is what it is, and in 1967 you cannot seperate GM, Fisher or Chevy in the basic production methods used to build a car.

Where this specific Z-28 listed was delayed in the production cycle can be debated for a long time, but this I can tell you is my opinion:.

The Camaro bodies at Fisher were sequentially built in 1967. This was signified by a body unit number which allowed Fisher to track production by unit.

At the Hole coming out of Fisher the cars were staged in lines for VIN assignment and Chevrolet did not assign VIN's in the exact order produced by Fisher

Further the date on the Trim Tag reflects the date the Body was built up at Fisher, and - in 1967 the basic option content is also listed on this same tag.

In 1968 Firebird production started at Norwood along with production at LOS and Lordstown. This change from a single line to a multiple GM brand line production method at Norwood caused the change in the data on the Fisher tag in 1968 on the Camaro - as Chevy was no longer the only customer for cars out of Fisher.

Let me draw you a picture:

If you were going to testify in court as to specifically "when" this car was built what do you think a Judge think when you present a case that this specific car was not "built" when the Manufacturer - "General Motors Corporation " indicates it was?

Everything else is correct on the Tag: the option content, the color the trim, Just the date is wrong....

Further to support your contentions you present a summary of information with no submission to prove the information is factual. Further the information you have to base your entire case on is from a statistically small sampling and that the actual data in support is not available to examine?

I would think you would have to show that the tag was somehow flawed or questionable...

I think the Judge will believe the data on the tag. The rest of the collector car community believes "the tag". Ask any guy here on this board when the car they have was built and they will check the trim tag.

I agree that in 1968 and in 1969 Changes were made in how vehicles were tracked and I stated specifically why above.

For 1967 you are swimming upstream here my friend,- but you are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine.

The car in this thread was likely the last 67 Z/28 produced by GM.

[Kurt S]

Fisher did not build the bodies in body # sequence. It was their tracking # for the unit when scheduling the bodies; that # related the order to a car (talking about 67/68 here). Lot easier to move around a couple of #'s around on paper to balance the line than the logistic nightmare of changing all the order #'s. I.e., it's easier to shuffle paper than it is to move car bodies.
There's tons of data to support this. Look at LOS cars - the work order # sequences up relative to the VIN throughout the day, but the body #'s bounce around. (Assuming you agree with http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#b - I know...the data to support *that* isn't published either...)

VIN's were then assigned when the cars first entered the Chevrolet side. That's why the VIN is never on any order confirmation back then. They never knew it til the car was being built.
VIN order is what decides when a car was actually on the Chevrolet assembly line. But then again, remember when they pulled the last Camaro, Oldsmobile, etc off the assembly line for the musuem, they always say that the last car doesn't always have the highest VIN. Because the staging lanes scramble the VIN order a little. The highest VIN will be the last car thru where the VIN's are assigned, but it probably won't be the last car down the line.

I have no idea what part of the http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml you don't think is correct. This was the same process used at all Fisher/Chevy plants and John was in those (Willow Run) before 67. Have you ever worked in an assembly plant?? They don't resequence the line every year - major undertaking and the tooling is kinda fixed in place. And yes, I did.

*NO* Firebird was ever built at Norwood in 68. Firebird production at NOR started 4/14/69.

The db size is no secret. 15,000+. Just what data are you using to support your 'opinions'??
Look analytically at the data you do have and it doesn't support what you are saying.


This is a post about a car for sale, this discussion should really be in the right forum.

[Charley Lillard]

Of the run of 50 Gibb ZL1's Mine is body # 222001 which is the first one of 50 in sequence but it is car # 14. My car has a 02D trim tag but cars #1 and #2 were delivered in December. Really confusing.

[Kurt S]

69 is a little different. The body # is the confirmation number.
But still the same concept applies - the scheduler moved the orders around as needed. And a call from Estes caused the #1 and #2 cars to be moved forward in the schedule.

It is a confusing system from the outside. If you haven't worked in production, esp automotive, it can be hard to grasp. Once you understand it, then a lot of things start to fall into place.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
69 is a little different. The body # is the confirmation number.
But still the same concept applies - the scheduler moved the orders around as needed. And a call from Estes caused the #1 and #2 cars to be moved forward in the schedule.

It is a confusing system from the outside. If you haven't worked in production, esp automotive, it can be hard to grasp. Once you understand it, then a lot of things start to fall into place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kurt it is not at all confusing. Go back and re read each of my posts. Really read them please.


Now since there was "no firebird production at Norwood in 1968" you are playing dates. Do you really think GM is going to phase in production of a duifferent brand line COLD?? No they are going to change the tag to prepare for the change. The 1969 models were produced at Norwood in year 1968, as a 1969 models. What about this is not clear??

"Once you understand it, then a lot of things start to fall into place".


Yes I know I live pretty close to the retiree hall for the old Norwood UAW. When we speak of our exacting standards of "date and build" to these guys you get laughed at really quick. Been there done that.

In the end it is still your opinion. In the end the guys who built the cars in 1967 tell a different story.

Phil

[Unreal]

The youngest kid in the class is the one who was born last, regardless of when he was conceived. Conceived first (Fisher body tag) could have actually been born last (Chevrolet VIN)

[Kurt S]

[ QUOTE ]
In 1968 Firebird production started at Norwood along with production at LOS and Lordstown. This change from a single line to a multiple GM brand line production method at Norwood caused the change in the data on the Fisher tag in 1968 on the Camaro - as Chevy was no longer the only customer for cars out of Fisher.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now since there was "no firebird production at Norwood in 1968" you are playing dates. Do you really think GM is going to phase in production of a duifferent brand line COLD?? No they are going to change the tag to prepare for the change. The 1969 models were produced at Norwood in year 1968, as a 1969 models. What about this is not clear??

[/ QUOTE ]
Phil,
"What is not clear?" Nothing, other that it's wrong. You were talking about 68 model year with the reference to the change to the trim tag and the start of production at LOS in your first post. Then you talk about 68 calendar year. But it doesn't matter.

Absolutely NO Firebirds were built at Norwood in 68 - calendar year or model year. Firebird was removed from Lordstown on 3/15/69 in prep of the stripping of the plant and the installation of the Vega tooling. (JohnZ was the person responsible for ripping out the tooling and installing the Vega tooling, btw. Some good stories there!) Firebird production restarted on 4/14/69, at NOR. This is documented from the General (hence why I know the exact dates). Can you show me *any* NOR Firebirds built before April 69??? Should be easy if you're right. If you want to save time, don't bother - they don't exist.

[ QUOTE ]
When we speak of our exacting standards of "date and build" to these guys you get laughed at really quick.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course. They were there to install a part. They would never look at a build date unless they are entering it for the POP info. Who (in the plant) cares what the date of an alternator is as long as it's the right part #?


I read what you wrote and a lot of it is wrong. Hence my post this morning about how the body #'s and VIN's were handled in the plant. You asked for data and I gave you concrete examples. Just like my post now.

Whether you choose to look at this info analytically and with an open mind, well....

Exactly what do you think was different in 67??
And again, "Just what data are you using to support your 'opinions'??"