Collector Car Fraud!!!

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Verne, you got some bad info, I have a book of records that go back much further than '72. The 'flood' is a commonly used excuse, but when pressured the DOT will only call it 'an error' My '69 must be cursed because it's not in the NICB database either

[kwhizz]

[ QUOTE ]
Verne, you got some bad info, I have a book of records that go back much further than '72. The 'flood' is a commonly used excuse, but when pressured the DOT will only call it 'an error' My '69 must be cursed because it's not in the NICB database either

[/ QUOTE ]


Maybe it's a Clone...........LOL......Just Kidding.. M

Ken

[Les Quam]

Bryan,
I have no doubt your heart is in the right place and having been licensed to practice law since 1983 and also being licensed in four different states I have had my share of experience with collector car fraud as you put it. Most of my collector car fraud experience is from helping friends and neighbors with their various car problems and I have never charged them a dime for my time. I assume you and your firm will not be working pro bono and will be charging your firms standard hourly rate after also receiving a retainer with each case? If I am mistaken please correct me? I can't imagine your firms hourly rate is less than 200 dollars an hour presently?

If your firm retains an attorney in another jurisdiction and motions that jurisdictions court for a pro hoc vice motion to allow your firm to represent a client in that foriegn jurisdiction that will be quite costly for the client. And unless the value of the car in question has at least a six figure value or more most such litigation is cost prohibitive for the client. Each jusrisdictions laws are different as to when a losing party must pay the winners attorney's's fee's. Most often if the loser has a good faith defense attorney's fee's are not awarded.

Only a few large well known dealers will resolve a problem with a few letters as you state. Most dealers are shell corporations or minimally capitalized and could care less if they become involved in a litigation. They just close down and move to another location under another name and continue with their fraud.

With Chevy's it is almost impossible(which is why I don't own any) to prove fraud because unlike Pontiac's and Fords the factories have suppiled little or no support to document how a car left the factory. For every expert you find to prove a car is a fraud the defense can find their own expert to say the car is legitimate. Having an abundance of trial experience I can tell you their is an expert available to testify to anything an attorney should need.

The other inherent difficulty is most often times a car is finally determined to be a fraud after being sold numerous times over several years and it's virtually impossible to determine who actually created the fraudlent parts and introduced it into the stream of commerce. Most often 4 or 5 successive owners over a long period of time all honestly thought for example their Camaro was a real L-78 when they sold it until one day someone finally figures it out. Very difficult to establish liability in that case.

IMHO the real fertile ground for an ambitious young lawyer fresh out of law school seeking to quell collector car fraud is the well known muscle car auction houses. These so called "no reserve" auctions are for the most part a sham with chandlier bidding common place and buyers buying back their cars at no fee's in many cases. This practice which is getting more well known and common place is a treasure trove for antitrust lawyers. Look up and research the recent litigation and subsequent criminal issues Sotheby's and the other high end art houses were subjected to for doing exactly what the current muscle car auction houses are doing now. These auctions houses are driving up the prices of muscle cars on a global scale using phantom bidders and bogus scams to increase their fee's and it hurts all potential buyers trying to afford a muscle car.

I admire your desire to help stop muscle car fraud and am in complete agreement with you that fraud is rampant in our hobby and needs to be attacked. However the reason it exists after 30 something years of muscle car mania and fraud is because it is damn near impossible to stop it. Nine out of every ten calls I get for help in a case of collector car fraud involve a Chevy most of them are Camaro's. In most case the dealer has no assets or it was purchased "as is" "where is" at an auction who has no responsiblity to research the thousand or so cars it consigns for authenticity.

Please don't take my comments as an attack on your post I am just sharing my thoughts and experience. Keep up the good work.

Again I respect where your heart is and don't want to deter you in any way. Good luck.

[70 copo]

Les,

Well stated. Sad but true. The buyer has got to know what he is buying today.

[elcamino72]

Les, I truly appreciate all of your comments and insight, it means a great deal to me. I understand the problems with pursuing these collector car cases however with the value of the legit cars going through the roof; the discrepancy between a legit car and a clone can be in the six figure range. I believe that a buyer of one of these vehicles should have a place to turn to get some relief. As a true enthusiast, I can empathize with the buyer and I feel strongly that this fraud in our market as go on too long. The prevailing hourly rate for our firm is less than $200 an hour. You are correct, making the other side pay the buyer’s legal fees may be difficult, but it is something we would certainly actively pursue.

This board’s enthusiasm is wonderful and I hope that by putting this out there, we can show that there may be a legal recourse after you find out the car you bought isn’t the car you thought it was. While buyer beware is the best defense, sometimes even a somewhat informed buyer can get tricked.

[Hotrodpaul]

I think the responsibility rests with the buyer. I feel that anyone buying a car of this type for an investment should educate him or her self and do the research necessary to know what they are buying. All too often emotion takes over and we tend to get in a hurry, plunking down our hard earned cash in a rush to get the car. I have done it in the past. There are many books, publications, forums, and experts to draw knowledge from that could go a long way in preventing this type of fraud.

Paul

[Les Quam]

Go get em Bryan!!!!

I have been closely following a dealer down south and some of his more dubious transactions and sooner or later I will put him out of business. I just need to find the rebodied car with the bogus tags he put on this specific car and sold not to long ago. Like corpus Delecti I need a body , but once I find the car I will put him out of business. That is of course unless he told the new owner of this six figure plus car it was a rebody with a repop fender tag and an VIN number from another car???? LOL

[AutoInsane]

For a good resource on auto related legal matters check out the Legal Files (I believe that is the name of the column) in Sports Car Market. Many issues including liability and fraud have been covered. Most often these cases do seem to involve $400,000 to 1 million plus dollar cars.

www.SportsCarMarket.com <-- best magazine!!

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
Verne, you got some bad info, I have a book of records that go back much further than '72. The 'flood' is a commonly used excuse, but when pressured the DOT will only call it 'an error' My '69 must be cursed because it's not in the NICB database either

[/ QUOTE ]

How extensive are your records going back to 1972. I am interested in the PA records between 71 and 78.

[Lynn]

Wanted to ad my 02 cents. Lots of valid points. Les, you are correct in many ways. However, even with a Camaro, it MAY be possible to prove fraud. It just takes some investigation and a little luck. VIN searches that are usually off limits are available for "investigation in anticipation of litigation". I was able to pinpoint the timeframe when a fake X33 tag was installed on a car. I realize it may not be that easy each time.

No, we can't stop every case, but I honestly believe we can stop the most blatant ones.

I have a case pending against a dealer in Southern Oklahoma. Email me if you want a copy of the Petition. It is a monster file in tif format, about 8.5mb. Frankly, I don't care if I have to hound the seller the rest of his life, as long as he quits committing this kind of fraud.

A judgment based on fraud is NOT dischargeable in Bankruptcy.

For those who believe it is "all" on the buyer to determine, I must respectfully disagree. Sure, diligence in having the car checked out thouroughly is great. However, if someone represents the trim tag info as correct and original KNOWING that it is a fake tag (especially when he put it on there) a novice buyer should be able to rely on that information. That isn't puffery. It is fraud. For those reading this who may have been burned by obvious fraud, and have sought help from private attorneys without luck, contact your state's Attorney General. Most states have consumer fraud divisions. You may need to do some of your own investigation, but it is another avenue worth pursuing.

Lastly, if you know anyone in your state legislature, request a meeting. Tell them about the rampant fraud being perpetrated with these fake (notice I did not call it a REPRODUCTION - IT DOES NOT REPRODUCE anything 99.9% of the time) trim tags, and ask if they will consider sponsoring a bill that will outlaw the sale of those tags "for use in the state of __________". I have just requested such a meeting, and hopefully by this time next year, it will be illegal to sell a fake tag for use in Oklahoma.

Will keep you posted.

Lynn Bilodeau