Nice car, but so much wrong

[fpcopo]

I know I'm gonna get killed for this but it has bothered me for a long time so here goes. My opinion and maybe only mine is that Baldwin Motion cars are junk. They are nowhere near as rare or desirable as any COPO. They were a standard RPO Chevy that was delivered to a speed shop and make no mistake not a shop that had any special connection to Chevrolet or any other manufacturer but just a speed shop not unlike the one in your town. When I started my business restoring cars in 1991, the first car we restored was a "Phase III" '71 Camaro. This car was a 7,100 mile unmolested car when we got it. I was shocked at the way Motion hacked and cobbled the installation of any thing they did. This car had the Hone overdrive and when the owner previous to the one we were restoring the car for first put slicks on it and hammered it, the overdrive even though not engaged, suffered lathed gears. This unit was so under engineered it could have never held up to the LS6 engine in the car. There were many other things wrong. Even though the engine had never been worked on, when it was disassembled it had one open chamber and one closed chamber head. I wonder who the genius was that did that?When Motion installed the fibre glass hood there was no place to attach the windshield squirters so they just let them dangle down the firewall on the hoses. Also people like to say how fast Joel Rosen's cars went. Why did he only run AHRA and not NHRA? Because he could never go fast enough to meet the standard of performance in NHRA's classes. The only guys from Motion that really ran well to my knowledge were Dennis Ferrara and Bill Mitchell and Mitchell did it with Volkswagens! Also a car that was not delivered by Baldwin and sent to Motion as a new car should not be considered a Baldwin Motion car. If it was purchased at another dealer and sent to Motion for mods later it should be considered just another speed shop hacked car and priced accordingly. This should also go for cars sent to Yenko, Harrell or any other speed shop after they were used. I just do not think a car purchased at another dealer and sent to Yenko for mods is anything other than a plain old modified car. I know I will probably get death threats for this but it is MY OPINION and I will stand behind it. the reason I bring this up is, the value of these cars is getting so high that I feel we need to keep it honest and not assign high prices or Godlike status to non COPO cars. Frank

[fpcopo]

Andy, I don't know you and wasn't picking on your car. I am voicing my opinion because I want to make sure Supercars remain the elite group they are. I am not bashing any ones car in particular and everything I wrote pertained to what I had seen on two of the cars I personally worked on. I don't want any one to think I am trying to stir up trouble or trying upset the web masters. I enjoy this site and all who are on it. This is America and we are all free to voice our views good bad or otherwise. Thanks, Frank

[ANDY M]

Frank, no offense taken! I was addressing the Forum, and since I generally refer to my Camaro as a "beater", which in my opinion it is, I happen to agree with what you said.
I love cars, and hope that I never lose the passion, but if I do, I'll get over it and move on.
I may not take my love of these cars as seriously as some folks do, but I can still relate to their passion, even if I don't quite share it on the same level. I just hope they can do the same for everybody else.
Peace, Love and Freedom.
Andy

If you ask for an appraisal,then that is what you should get. It can be handled tactfully and with class. There is obviously a wealth of knowledge on this board. Would the site not be better served with a dedicated forum for those, "in the know", to discuss their opinions of somene's car? A moderated forum that, keeps bashing in check and makes for an enjoyable and informative read for us other gearheads. I would be in favor of just such a forum. Then when someone gets out of line in another forum, they can be escorted to the newly created critique forum, or perhaps even escorted off the site if they can't make nice comments. I just think the site will be better in the long run if overzealous comments are reined-in. Once again, if someone asks for opinions or selling tips, give them a forum to receive what they want. Thanks for all that responded so far.

[JoeG]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I'm gonna get killed for this but it has bothered me for a long time so here goes. My opinion and maybe only mine is that Baldwin Motion cars are junk. Frank [/quote ]

Gee Frank feeling better now.........???

[LVCamaro]

I'm with you, Joe. Joel R is a friend of mine and it frustrates me to see this debate on the WWW. Joel's creations may not be for everyone, but that doesn't open the door for such brash disrespect for a living legend, IMO. PM me if you want Joel's E numbers, phone numbers, addy...or does that require something your keyboard can't hatch?

SS

[camarojoe]

I agree LV.. Discussion of a car for sale is one thing, but to bash someone's efforts or reputation , (be it a personal opinion or otherwise) in a public forum seems to not be too productive or beneficial to the hobby.

[Charley Lillard]

Frank I gotta disagree. When I looked over the 80 Motion Camaro I had I was amazed by the extra steps Motion took when I think they could have fudged instead. Stuff like two holley fuel pumps. The second one turning on by micro switch when under full throttle with the Nitrous on. The Chrysler Liberty 4 speed versus just leaving a muncie in. The electric fan in front of the radiator in addition to the regular fan. The electric one was controlled by a capillary tube inserted under the upper radiator hose where it attaches to the radiator. The list went on and on. Yes any speed shop could do that also but it was done by Motion. You could bitch at Yenko for doing nothing more that hiring kids to apply stripes on Deuces or just adding stripes to COPO cars. I think Motion should also be commended for the wild and cool looks they did to alot of their cars. Your bashing seems pretty harsh for what appears to be based on exposure to two cars. As for drag racing, maybe some can chime in on what they accomplished.

[JChlupsa]

Have to agree with LV/Charley and a few others and say Joel was at the forefront of building up any Muscle car and I would love to have one. Matter of fact there were a few here in Hawaii to include the Ribbon Car but thats been cubed and now sitting about 3 miles off shore and at about 1200FT (According to the last owners son who said that car and a bunch of parts were hauled off by a new home owner that bought a house and wanted the place cleaned out!!!)

As for NHRA Records:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="brown">Dennis Ferrara's
"Motion Performance"
70 Camaro A/MP
In the early 70's Dennis drove this car
to hold NHRA national records
13 different times.
As an A/MP car weighing in at a hefty 3024 lbs, it
ran 9.30 at 140mph.
This 430 ci Rat motored car was unbeaten in
class for 3 years straight !!
Ertl reproduced this car as it was raced in the 70's
tunnel ram intake w/ 2 4bbl carbs, racing headers,
hood scoop, slicks on Centerlines, </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[whitetop]

[ QUOTE ]
Also people like to say how fast Joel Rosen's cars went. Why did he only run AHRA and not NHRA?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not run Nhra? I think the local tracks were affiliated with AHRA. Suffolk County was AHRA. And I believe the Hamptons on Long Island may have been also. Not sure about New York International. No one knows the exact reason Joel did not run the national nhra circuit. I don't think he even ran the AHRA circuit out of his area for that matter. Joel probably felt he did not have to. I would say the majority of his cars sold or were converted to people in the immediate surrounding states.

BTW: The New York mags that heavily promoted Motion (other than HiPerformance Cars) were just that, regional mags that portrayed the New York scene. Every car ever featured or show coverage was from one of the New York burroughs it seemed like. Up until ebay and the internet I met people out of other regions of the country who had never heard of Hot Cars, Rodding &amp; Super Stock, Super Street Cars, Chevy Power and Chevy Action.