Judges

[442w30]

Even though I believe the RAIII was not available on the Tempest and its derivatives, I feel it would be giving a RAIV a run for its money, if not beat it outright. I would bet it was 300 lbs lighter than a GTO. Keep in mind that the Tempest was a rubber floormat-type of car with little sound-deadener. Meanwhile, the GTO not only was the performance king of the A-bodies, but it was also the most deluxe when it came to appointments.

The GT-37 was not so much an insurance beater as was the incarnation of the stillborn "ET" from the year before. The GT-37 was only fast with the 400-4 engines - the 350-2 was a slug and did not compete with the cosmetic supercars of the day, such as the Rallye 350 and the GS 350, among others.

Here's a link that may be of interest:
GT-37

[StealthBird]

But the 70 GTO could also be ordered stripped, with no sound deadener, to the point where it weighed what a GT-37 weighed (minus the Endura nose). The GT-37's were more bare bones to cut costs, and allow a buyer a cheap GTO of sorts (like a Pontiac "Road Runner"), very much like the original E/T (Judge) was supposed to be. The marketing of this car was 1) Cheap performance 2) Cheap insurance

A buyer could order a 70 GTO gutted, and the Ram Air setup would put 70 GTO RAIII ahead of a GT-37 RAIII, assuming of course they made those.

As for the RAIV not keeping with a RAIII? Considering the RAIV round port heads, aluminum intake, and especially the RAIV cam and valvetrain, how on earth would a RAIII outrun a RAIV? So Pontiac made a mistake developing all of these special parts? By that logic, an 70 LS5 Chevelle should beat an 70 LS6 Chevelle, a 73 Trans Am 455 should beat a 73 SD455 Trans Am, a 70 442 should beat a 70 442 W-30, and a 70 GS455 should beat a 70 GS Stage 1.

The RAIII was a great engine, no doubt about that, but the RAIV was better all around. The RAIII was not in the same league as the RAIV, no more than the standard 68 Firebird 400 was in the same league as the 68 Firebird Ram Air II.

[Steve_Hoog]

I only have some goodies on the 71, if anyone has and would share the 70 motor options for the GT37 it would be cool.

71 GT37 availabilities

[442w30]

Where did you get the information you could order a GTO gutted? Have you seen one before?

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>As for the RAIV not keeping with a RAIII? Considering the RAIV round port heads, aluminum intake, and especially the RAIV cam and valvetrain, how on earth would a RAIII outrun a RAIV? So Pontiac made a mistake developing all of these special parts? By that logic, an 70 LS5 Chevelle should beat an 70 LS6 Chevelle, a 73 Trans Am 455 should beat a 73 SD455 Trans Am, a 70 442 should beat a 70 442 W-30, and a 70 GS455 should beat a 70 GS Stage 1. </pre><hr />

If you're going to make a point, you should compare apples and apples. My point was that the Tempest tested in 1970 very well could have been faster than a RAIV GTO. To make your arguement sound, you must compare a 455 Special with a GS Stage 1 . . . and we know for sure there were no Specials made with the 455.

[Steve_Hoog]

442w30

With the right connections you could get a car gutted, any car.

But the GT-37/T-37 was a some what gutted vehicle without pulling strings.

So both view points would be correct.

[442w30]

Stealthbird, I think you need to give more credence to the Tempest's weight. Let's use T-37s and GTOs as an example. We know both, when equipped with the 455HO, are not in the same league. The latter is a fast car, and the former is a Hemi killer!

Steve, "with the right connections" is an idea that has too much weight. What do you know from 1970 that was built "with the right connections"? At best it's an anomoly.

[Steve_Hoog]

That's an easy one.

Michael Guarise's (sixtiesmuscle) Tin Indian 1970 Judge was built minus dum dum, as reported by Micky Hale (another board member)who is restoring the car.

That good enough to satisfy you?

[442w30]

So what you're saying is that a dealership ordered its race car without frills?

That's an anomoly. 99.9% of GTOs ordered were not like that.

I just think people (not necessarily you) are too quick to say things about cars in the era that aren't really true, such as "they'll build it any way you want" or "that 426-S Polara 4-door was ordered by the FBI".

[StealthBird]

Well, let's take a stripped 71 T-37 with a 455 HO, and then we have a car that a friend of mine owned, a bare bones 71 GTO post coupe, 455 HO, dog dish hubcaps, and a painted top. The color combo would make a billy goat puke, but it was light, and fast. So where would the weight difference be? The Endura front bumper is all I can come up with between the T-37 and GTO, and by 1971, the Endura nose wasn't very big. If the 455 HO was ordered, a HD battery and HD cooling would be in both cars, so no weight differences there. And I would still give the nod to the GTO because it could have Ram Air, which of course you could not get with the GT-37 or T-37.

Overall, most GT-37's and T-37's were purchased as a cheap alternative to the GTO, with cheaper insurance premiums, and very few were built like Dan Jensen's 455 HO car. But there are oddball 70 RAIV GTO's and 71 GTO 455HO's out there with no options, perhaps ordered by a dealership to go racing.

Hey, who hosed up this thread? It's gettin' hard to read!