1969 Z11 Camaro Convertible Pace Car Wrecked Shell

[njsteve]

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Legally...how much of the car do you have to transfer (by percent or specific parts) to be legal?

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You can sell any or all of the car and it's not a problem. Most State laws make it a crime to sell a VIN tag though, even with an accompanying title. The crime comes into play when you take the tag from one vehicle and place it on another. Heck, you can even take the VIN tag of one of those infamous missing ZL-1s and dance in the streets with it but if you try to rivet it onto another car it then becomes a Federal Felony. The added bonus (to the Feds) is that the car is now deemed "contraband" and will be seized. Once declared contraband it cannot be sold at one of those government auctions either. It usually gets used as a government car in some manner or another or is crushed..... I can just see it now, Efram Zimblist, Jr. cruising up to FBI headquarters in his seized, rebodied 69 ZL1.

[olredalert]

--------While Im sure you are correct in what you have stated about the legalities, I wonder at what point one considers the sheet metal that has been stamped out and then welded together a car. I know this is wierd, but it seems somewhat similar to the point at which a fetus is deemed life. I know, I said it was wierd! Hope this isnt another Roe-VS-Wade on a smaller, less important scale, but I dont consider a bare complete body a car, although others might...........Bill S

[njsteve]

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--------While Im sure you are correct in what you have stated about the legalities, I wonder at what point one considers the sheet metal that has been stamped out and then welded together a car.

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The issue is not about the car body, it's about placing a VIN tag from another car on that body. THAT is what is illegal. (Not withstanding any civil copyright issues GM may have with the trademarked design of the 69 Camaro)

I think Dynacorn could avoid all legal problems by simply classifying their "item" as a 1/1 scale model of a 69 Camaro shell. They could put a Monogram or Revell label on the crate and then sell them through local hobby shops. It would be just another collectors item like Johnny Lightenings or Hotwheels...only much bigger!

[gemleeus]

why would anyone even want to place the vin and trim plates from an original car to the new bodies?

[njsteve]

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why would anyone even want to place the vin and trim plates from an original car to the new bodies?

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Unfortunately there are people out there who, 1) instead of taking the time/money to restore a car, (due to the massive amounts of $$$ involved) or 2) want to change the color/trim/engine options on their car and then represent it as an original car, or 3) who have a car that is too rusted, or 4) have a car with a suspect past (stolen), will try to just take the VIN tag off of the old car and put it on the new car and then represent the "new" car as the original car. There are people on both sides of the fence on the issue, i.e. whether is it justified in certain cases or not, i.e., a rusted beyond recogntion 71 Hemicuda convertible. But the fact is: that until the laws are repealed or revised (unlikely) to suit the realities of the restoration community (and illegal chop shop operators in some cases), it is still a felony to swap VINs from one body to another.

I don't see the Federal law ever getting revised because it would gut the original intent of the law, allowing auto thieves to open up "legal" chop shops everywhere. If you're not familiar with how they operate, one of the common scenarios is that the chop shop will legitimately buy a totaled 2002 Camaro for say, $500 and then have one of their thieves steal a similar 2002 Camaro off the street. They will then swap the VIN off of the totalled car and place it on the stolen car, thereby turing their $500 investment into a $25,000 profit.

Wow, this is sounding much too much like work. Can we go back to making fun of fake white 68 Yenkos on ebay now?

[gemleeus]

I see no "justification in certain cases" weather its a yugo or 71 hemi cuda, if its beyond the grave to bad, leave it there. would'nt the totalled camaro have a salvaged title thus changing the vin plates around would be for not. by running the vin it would come up as a salvage and throw up red flags at that point?

[njsteve]

I was trying to do the reader's digest version. But since you ask: At the same time Mr. Chop Shop is physicaly swapping his VINs, he is either "manually" revising the paper title with some white-out or "washing" it through another state where they don't brand titles as salvage. Now he has a fresh, unbranded title to sell the car with. This also adds a plethora of additional Federal felonies: Mail Fraud, Wire Fraud, Securities Fraud (titles are considered a "security instrument") and ITSMV -Interstate Transportation of Stolen Motor Vehicles.

Students, your final exam will be next Tuesday.

[BARN FIND]

OK, bottom line, how much of the original car can you replace before it is illegal (or it is considered a body swap)?

[njsteve]

No definitive answer on that, only arguments with a slippery slope. On a unibody car like a Camaro, I would say if you have the original car's shell with firewall (with hidden VIN and VIN tag intact) you are fine. Then any work you are doing to that shell is considered repair/restoration. That shell may need the frame rails replaced, floors replaced, roof replaced, trunk floor replaced...but the end result will still have been based upon that original car. Compare that scenario with the easy and less expensive way of pulling the VIN off and riveting it on a rust free 6-cylinder car's body. That would be illegal.

On a body-on-frame car like a Chevelle, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the frame does not have a VIN on it, so the body shell again would be the primary piece of the vehicle's identity.

The point is you have to keep the original framework of the car to still be that car. I would use the human body as an example: heart transplant, lung transplant, kidney transplant = still same person. But you transplant the brain where all the "data" exists as to that person's originality and it is now another person...but then Joan Rivers comes to mind...Does anyone here think any of Joan's original parts are still on her body...or in a jar somewhere?

[Mark_C]

Mr. chop shop does not fall under the exemptions stated in USC 511, since he is a not the owner or the owners representative, b probably knows the vehicle is stolen, and c does not have the owners permission. Therefore by definition of the code he is performing an illegal act under this section of the code. This is also not to say that there are not state codes dealing with the "tampering" with a VIN that may also apply to this situation.

Once again it all comes down to the definition of repair. If I, for example, want to repair my Z11 (cause I own one) by purchasing a bunch of reproduction body parts already welded together to form a body tub by someone else (it is not a car after all, it's a repair peice) and install it in my driveway with my two hands, instead of buying a bunch of loose reproduction and or NOS body parts and paying someone to weld them together onto my subframe, I am all of a sudden considered as some lower form of life (for example, I'm not really that bad a person), whereas the person who delivers a rusted out hulk of a Z11 and all those loose parts to a body shop and returns 6 months to a year later with a big check in hand is a savior or a classic automobile. Sort of like the work done on Fred Gibb's #1 ZL1 coupe, but because he kept the dreaded hidden VIN sections of the firewall it's OK. What happened to the VIN or VIN's or the cars all the rest of the pieces were cut from, or is this OK cause it's a Historic Vehicle. Yes, I'm being slightly sarcastic, but not that much. What's the difference in the end, both vehicles contain sheetmetal that was made somewhere besides the original GM sheetmetal plants. What is the holy part of the Camaro that should not be reproduced that is making this body tub so distatefull to people.

I agree that someone should not be able to make a hot rod version of the Camaro from this part, but thats a different issue. But all of this is probably moot because if GM makes Dynacorn sell these things without quarters the market for them is going to shrink to about 10 to 20 percent of what it was with the quarters. Obviously the price is now going to have to drop by 2 to 3 thousand dollars and that may make the return on investment way to low to justify their continued existance.

And yes, a chevelle does have a VIN stamped on the frame on the drivers side top, back by the gas tank I believe.