Is this a War or not? Something to think about?

[Salvatore]

I agree Belair! We have stopped Israel on many occasions from settling the Middle East years ago. I don't always approve of their tactics, but you have to get it done. It just never seems to end. I have a son who was in Germany for 8 mths. about a year ago. They don't like us either. Hopefully they will leave his company alone for now. Sam

[Jeff H]

Yup, it's all about hatred. We need to find out what makes these people hate us so much. But most of these people cannot be reasoned with so we also have to learn how to deal with them. I don't think anyone has the real answer at this point in time.

[firstgenaddict]

We are not in a popularity contest with the rest of the world. We essentially gave up our sovereignty when we allowed the UN to do all of our negotiations. They put into place all kinds of sanctions but when they are violated they do nothing. It was about time someone (Bush) stepped in and put their foot down. Everytime we have backed down we have been pushed back even further. Bullies (terrorists) only understand one thing "A good ole' fashioned Asswhippin"
They thought that since we have backed down for the last 25 years we would back down again ... they got a hell of a lot more than they bargained for. Do you think Libya gave up their nuke program because we pacified the terrorists? No they gave it up because they realized that they were probably on the short list of countries to be ridded of their leaders.

[whitetop]

[ QUOTE ]
Bullies (terrorists) only understand one thing "A good ole' fashioned Asswhippin"


[/ QUOTE ]

It took blasting about 200,000 Japs with nukes, to pacify a nation of about 50 million.

Muslims, with 1.4 billion at present, would (by application of the same ratio) require 5.6 million dead.

Time is wasting, as we speak. As you can see I'm not PC. I'm sorry I don't trust them. Maybe I would if I saw an ounce of outrage by American Muslims of Muslim terrorists acts butI don't.

[427TJ]

I hear you, but a major difference between the Japanese in WWII and modern Islamic fundamentalists is that the war with Japan was not religious, it was basically economic. Japan sought to extend it's control over natural resources and attacked us so as to keep us from stopping them. As we know, Pearl Harbor ultimately backfired on Japan and we did stop them in the end.

Yes, it is very telling that both the U.S. and European Muslim community isn't more vocal in their resistance to Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. Probably because they know they'll get blown up by a suicide/homicide bomber if they speak too loudly. Yes, a few of them speak out but in guarded terms. Just as we Americans were all brothers as the WTC fell on 9/11, they are all brothers too.

I am very suspect as to how all this plays out, especially given that we are so closely allied both politically and economically with the Saudi royals as well as the Israelis. It seems like a huge house of cards to me.

[Norm reynolds]

One thing for shore Americans WILL not tolerate a daft after the Vietnam mess I will NEVER FORGET
I am not willing and it would be over my dead body that my daughter would serve after today’s beheading
This is the final straw either we pull out and forget it or pull out and nuke them all sorry but do not feel sorry for the people of Iraq they know who the terrorist are and they do nothing so my take is they are as much at fault There will never be peace in Iraq so just nuke them and be over with it I am just sick and tied of this whole mess

[Mr70]

Today I have a 13 year old niece & nephew.I would imagine in 5 years,they will be called into duty.I think this War will be going on for aloooong time,but every night I Pray I am wrong.

[Pantera]

I wish it was just that easy but we could not live with ourselves if we did that.

Since we are just pipe dreaming here = I wish we could adapt their logic and go after each one of them indivualy. I mean destroy each one of them and their families. Hunt them down like a dog.

They have no fear of death. in fact it is a honor to die for the cause. BUT if we would slaugher each and every one of their children, wives, mothers, father, and sisters and everyone else related to them. We would get their attention. That is the one thing that they do revere and we would strike fear into the hearts of those on the fence that might be drawn into the battle by them. Not to mention there would be less trainees for them to recruit to murder our childre and friends.

Ohhhh well. Back to the civilized world. Frustration vented.....

Sigh.......


Pantera

[427TJ]

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BUT if we would slaugher each and every one of their children, wives, mothers, father, and sisters and everyone else related to them. We would get their attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember in the movie "The Godfather" where young Michael Corleone (Al Pacino) is walking through a village in Sicily with his bodyguards? He sees only a few women and children hurredly doing their daily tasks and asks, "Where are all the men?" One of the bodyguards answers, "They have all been killed in the vendettas." That's how the Sicilian Mafia operated, they had to kill all the men in order to feel secure against retribution. In another "Godfather" scene Vito (Robert DeNiro), the head of the Corleone family, takes his family back to Sicily. While he's there he pays a visit to the old Mafia Don who had killed Vito's father. Years earlier, the Don had then summoned young Vito and his mother to be killed so as to keep them from taking revenge on the old Don someday. The Don killed Vito's mother but Vito escaped death that day by running away and had come back as a man to avenge his mother's brutal killing. He pays his respects to the old Don and then pulls out a large knife and guts him. Vito says to the Don as he's cutting him open, "This is for my mother." That's why we can't possibly kill all of them and hope it will end. Nobody ever forgets.

The Israeli-Palestinian (Jews vs. Arabs) conflict has been going on for basically 2000 years. Just as we say, "Never forget 9/11," they say, "Never forget" things that happened 2000 years ago and in every generation since. That's just what humans do. We never forget wrongdoing, unfair treatment, brutal killings, and on and on.

Hell, both Republicans and Democrats say, "Never forget the 2000 election!"

One very important thing worth understanding is what America means to the people of every other country on earth. It is our moral example---that America stands for things that the rest of the world wants for itself. Not just big cars and air conditioned homes, but what symbols like the Constitution and the Statue of Liberty stand for. Yes, freedom is part of it, but it is religious freedom, freedom from tyranny and opression, freedom to think and talk and travel without fear of repraisal, freedom to read what we want, free and open elections, freedom of the press, and the list goes on.

Of course, we know there are problems with some of those freedoms and how we percieve them, but I think you get my drift.

What will probably be the outcome of the post-9/11 world is that America will continue to lose credibility in the Muslim world. I know that we invaded Iraq to plant the seeds of Democracy, but just as in farm crops, sometimes the soil just is not fertile and the seeds can't flourish and grow. Maybe Democracy can take hold in the Middle East, but I doubt it. There's a lot of pissed-off young men over there (insurgents, etc.) and as Pantera said, they see death as the road to Eternal Paradise. That's why I said that we will have to kill almost all of them, a-la the Sicilian Mafia's example, if we are to prevail.

Let's say we kill 90% of all Muslims on earth. What will other countries then think? "We're next!" is what they'll think. We have to respond to terrorists. We have to kill them, more of them than us, LOTS more of them. But it won't stop terrorism. It may subside for a few years, or perhaps decades, but it will always be a tactic against a larger, more powerful force.

"The War on Terror" is really a poor choice of words. It works as a sound bite on the evening news but its true meaning can never be achieved---how do we know when we've won? Terrorism may subside and politicians may declare "victory," but there will still be snakes out there in the grass and we just can't kill all of them. Just look at "The War on Drugs." How's that war going? Our police, FBI, DEA and other law-enforcement agencies fight the good fight day after day, year after year, decade after decade, and you can still get any illegal drug you want just a short drive (or walk) from your home. Or, just ask your teenage kid to get some at their school. Remember the mid-80s song "Smuggler's Blues" by Glen Frey? One line goes, "You ask any DEA man, he'll tell you there's nothing we can do." This isn't to say that we need to stop fighting. On the contrary, we need to keep on fighting and fighting and fighting, knowing, however, that such wars are probably forever ongoing.

Bin Laden has said that this latest chapter in the great jihad may take "100 years." He preaches that time is on their side. They don't have elections every four years either. The upside is that bin Laden's words and actions have brought America together (for the most part). The downside is that bin Laden's words and actions have brought the Muslim world together (for the most part) as well.

I'm home sick with a cold all week, kids are in school, wife's working, and that's why I have so much time to talk about this stuff. I'd much rather listen to Charlie outline the differences between a '69 Camaro Z/28 with power disc brakes vs. a JL8 car's setup. That's MUCH more interesting.

Okay Charlie, on that note, lead us back from the abyss and into the garage.