Steel '69 Crate Camaro

[Pantera]

If you should change the firewall and or remove the vin plate and put it on a new part you are violating a fed law. You are risking the feds conficistcating your car.

Now if you save the firewall, and expecially the hidden vin # (or as much is still good) and put it on a new body work then you would be much safer with the authorites. It is against a federal law to alter or remove a vin plate for any reason.

I learnd this the hard way with a wrecked '84 vette that I still have in storage. The guy I bought it from had stolen a nice car and removed the vin plate off mine and put it on the nice car that he stole.

I was found to be the legal and righfull owner of the wrecked car and he went to jail. I cannot recover the original vin plate but will have to do a state assigned vin plate if I put the car back on the road. I was planing on building a street car that looked like the IMSA corvettes back about that time but have since lost interest. Car only hss 60k on it.

So before you do something like this you should think hard about who wants to have them impound thier car for trying to do the right thing.

Do we have a fed on here that can give us a legal opinion?
Plese do your homework before you remove a vin plate. The feds just might ruin your day.

Pantera
former bodyshop owner.

[Supergas990]

Wow... You know what they say... "Rationalization is the second strongest human instinct".

As a street rod, great. As a restoration piece, it just doesn't seem to have much upside.

IMHO

Blair

[Canucklehead]

Im actually looking at doing a pro-street build of a 69 Camaro and have been tossing around the idea of using one of these bodys. I have been looking for quite sometime for a donor car and am finding that one in decent enough shape to start from is going to cost me 10k+. Than of course i have to repair whatever i need to keep. I figure it's going to cost me $25-30k just to prep the body. If i start with one of these body's at 12k, i would have to do my body mods from there, but should be running at about 20-25k for a prepped body. That would give me a BRAND NEW body, but not an original camaro. Since im building a complete street rod there won't be much left of an original. Im torn as to weather i should use an original or not. If you want to talk resale, while looking at this years BJ auction, street rods do retain good dollors unlike years ago, but would it make a defference if it was original or not, and if so how much?. Would it be worth it to use an original?, or save it for someone else to restore?. Sure you may say im distroying a perfectly good camaro, or am i keeping it alive. I really can't decide. Theres good and bad points either way.

[Dynacorn]

Check with your DMV.

[Dynacorn]

Mark C is absolutely correct. The replacement components are considered restoration parts. And as such, if you need to remove a VIN to replace a part, you are allowed by law to do so. As to whether someone is trying to pass off a clone as an original, that's not our realm. We deal in restoration and replacement parts only.

[Mark_C]

The only problem with your math is that when you buy an old Camaro in need of work, you are getting a ton of other parts beyond the sheet metal that you will need to build your car that will cost you huge dollars to get later on. Things like wiring harnesses, suspension components, an engine and transmission (usually), interior components etc. Even if the original are not good enough, or don't fit with your plans to be used in your new pro street, or pro touring car, they can be sold to recoupe some of your cost. To replace all the wiring inside a Camaro will run you in excess of $1200 just in the 4 original style harnesses.

When you buy these body components to start your build with that's all you get, no subframe, no suspension, wiring, interior, convertible top mechanism, etc. Add up the cost of obtaining those pieces individually and see where you end up.

People are still comparing transferring a VIN from one vehicle to another (which is illegal) to transferring a VIN from your car to a repair part (like a dash panel). These parts do not meet the definition of a motor vehicle as defined by the DOT so that is not an issue here even if the parts were welded up into a body tub as the original plan seemed to be. One would assume the GM, not the Feds, had something to do with preventing the assembly of the parts into a complete body tub because of licensing.

The 12K price was what was qouted for the assembled tub, wonder what the price is now for the parts, and how much does it cost to get them welded together? Are we still at 12K plus shipping to get it put together?

[Pantera]

Are you sure about the Vin transfer thing? I was informed by a federal law enforcment officer that once a vin plate was removed from a car for any reason you are violiating federal law if you put it back on.

Even on the same car that you put a repair part on. They will make you put a assigned vin number with a OK at the start of it here in Oklahoma. I am not sure what they do in other states. If you remove one and put it back on new parts on your same car don't tell anyone. You might loose your car on the spot if they find out.

I tried to get the original vin for a 84 vette stripper that I legally have. When they recovered the stolen vette that it was ilegally installed on, it was "NO deal" I could not get it done.

Psntera
former owner of
Corvette World Body and Repair
Tulsa OK

[Mark_C]

US Code Title 18 Section 511: Note Sections (B),(C), and (D) of Paragrah (2)

Section 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters anidentification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are -
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term -
(1) ''identification number'' means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) ''motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) ''motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) ''motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person -
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term ''tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

Definitions of "Motor Vehicle" per Section 32101 of Title 49 referenced above:

(7) ''motor vehicle'' means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.

(10) ''passenger motor vehicle'' means a motor vehicle with
motive power designed to carry not more than 12 individuals, but does not include -
(A) a motorcycle; or
(B) a truck not designed primarily to carry its operator or passengers.

(11) ''passenger motor vehicle equipment'' means -
(A) a system, part, or component of a passenger motor vehicle as originally made;
(B) a similar part or component made or sold for replacement or improvement of a system, part, or component, or as an accessory or addition to a passenger motor vehicle; or
(C) a device made or sold for use in towing a passenger motor vehicle.

[Pantera]

Mark, Great homework there. Thanks for posting that.
I would recomend that anyone that does something like this go get a local photocopy of this actual document and keep a copy of it with the title of the car in question.

I still feel that anyone that removes a vin number off a dash/firewall and puts it on a different body, could be opening themselves up for a big problem if they are not carefull.

Tecnially you are not repairing a part but actually manfacturing a bogus car. Some states might confisistate that car. The car will not bear the hidden vin #'s that law enforcment expects to be on a vehicle. Only a registered auto manfacturer can affix a vin # to a car. When you totally replace a body and then swap a vin # off another car, you are treading on shakey ground.

Any of you that consider it please get the blessing and a letter of such from a local Law enforcment official just to protect your ass. I am sure that those that live in the rust belt will have a easier time with local officals as they are more aware of the need to do something like this. It could have a negative effect in some of the western states.

I know for a fact and from personal experience on a 84 vette that you will be prohibited from re-using the same vin plate on a car here in OK. They will make you use one of their state assigned vin #'s. They would not allow me to reinstall the original vin plate on the vette that I have. I was told that I would go to jail if I tried to do that.

I am sure that every state has their own slant on this subject. Any of you that plan on doing this, Please consult your local law enforcment authorities and be sure to get it in writing. This could come back and bite you in the butt years later after you sell the car. I still feel you can legally replace the entire car except for the firewall or body part that has the vin plate and the hidden vin on the firewall and you would not be doing anything illegal. Yes it is a big job, but better safe than sorry. JMHO....

Pantera