70 LS6

[camarojoe]

"As far as LS6 value..It has always been my personal opinion that a documented, diamond certified LS6 should bring MORE money than a similar COPO Camaro."

LS6 more valuable than a COPO? N.F.W. (IMO)

A COPO can never be thoroughly verified as 100% legitimate??? I think you're gonna find alot of people disagree with both those revelations. I'd take a non-buildsheet COPO camaro over an LS6 with 3 of em... and I don't think I'm alone.

Well again that is an opinion...and I wouldn't think anyone has ever made POP's and window stickers???? Give me a break...I guess you guys are saying that a Camaro that happens to fall within a general body range and time frame AND MIGHT be a COPO, because of that it is worth more than a papered LS6???? Remind me to laugh...

It is only because the majority of guys here are Camaro guys (and you want to have the esteem of owning a COPO)that you would ever suggest that a COPO without any paperwork, just a "hunch" would be worth more than a papered LS6. Just so you guys know..I own both..and would never feel the X11, BE reared, single fuel line 1969 Camaro is worth more in the same condition as one of the LS6's. It is just my opinion...

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you guys are saying that a Camaro that happens to fall within a general body range and time frame AND MIGHT be a COPO, because of that it is worth more than a papered LS6???? Remind me to laugh...



[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I'm saying that you don't need a buildsheet for conclusive verification that a Camaro is a COPO. How many Yenkos have been found with buildsheets? Does that mean they are all "questionable" without one? I don't think so. Oh, by the way, don't forget to laugh.

I believe the actual full Yenko VIN's are known through paperwork, or at least the vast majority of them are..If they aren't then what does that say...??? I don't think COPO's are..to my knowledge there isn't a list of VIN's as in the 69 ZL1's that show a complete VIN..Therefore wouldn't it be fair to say that someone can take a single 3/8" fuel line low HP V8 Camaro that is a X11 body and build a COPO. Using your theory since the VIN isn't known and if the cowl tag and body build sequence is close then it is a "possible" COPO. I'm aware of the cars being built in sequences as well btw..but since there isn't a "firm" papertrail..who would know? With fraud being such a big part of this hobby now, wouldn't a car that has a factory paperwork be worth more since it can be eliminated from the potential frauds? I hate to argue this point as I think it is again personal opinion, but IMHO..the main reason COPO prices are at the level they are currently is largely in part to this website..Think about the number of cars that are traded among members here, each time raising the "value" and also helping to "validate" the car since it can be attributed to a "SYC" member. Case in point is the cars at Legendary Motors...these are documented Yenkos that are having a hard time moving(or at least did as I'm not 100% sure they haven't sold as of this writing)at the "current" prices..if the cars weren't somewhat overly inflated then they would have moved...the "non-SYC" member doesn't or is at least having a hard time, justifying the value or they would have never stayed around..Especially for such a popular car.

I'm not saying these cars aren't worth money or trying to step on others toes, but just food for thought. The LS6 in my opinion (again we all know what they are like) is currently undervalued.

Respectfully,

Greg

[Jeff H]

What's the difference between building a fake COPO on an X11 body and building a fake LS6? It might be a little easier to build the COPO, but it's harder to get the correct parts(BE rear) vs the LS6 Chevelle parts.

There isn't a difference...the point is that with a LS6 there is a point of reference as far as documentation if the car has a buildsheet...With a COPO there isn't that point of reference..therefore it would be quite a bit easier to fake one and since the hobby says factory paperwork isn't needed to "validate" the car it would "pass" the muster if done correctly. Try to get the same value on a LS6...won't happen since the hobby expects at a minimum a buildsheet...Also while BE rears are hard to come by they aren't impossible and since that is one of the "key" COPO components people are even restamping them...


Jeff..I never changed my opinion on the values..I think the "acceptable" paperwork on a LS6 (the buildsheet at a minimum) means that when looking at both cars of equal condition and validated as to what is acceptable (a buildsheet for the LS6, nothing but a build date range, a BE rear, and a body sequence range for the COPO) the LS6 im muy opinion should bring more money, as it has factory docs and would stand a greater chance of being legit. Case in point is this L89 '69 Chevelle convert that is local. If that car had a buildsheet with it's original drivetrain it would be what 200k frame off restored..much rarer than Yenkos or LS6 converts..Since it doesn't have the "acceptable" level of docs it is only worth 75k or so done...Why?? Because the guy having the income to buy wants to see he is buying the real deal....not saying "well...??"

[Jeff H]

But you're still comparing an LS6 with docs(buildsheet) to a COPO with no docs and you can't make that comparison. I would take the LS6 with docs over a non documented COPO without the original motor. If the COPO had the matching #'s motor, then that's as good as documentation and I would take the COPO over the LS6. We all know engines get restamped, but someone can forge a buildsheet as well. Buildsheets are known to be found in the wrong car so a buildsheet isn't bulletproof evidence either.

[Steve Shauger]

As Jeff has stated, all paperwork can be reproduced, even fake buildsheets have been found. If I am going to pay all the money, paperwork is not the only thing I am going to look at. Uncovering the integrity and pedigree of a car involve ownership history, close inspection of each component and overall originality. Bottom line, do the research and buy the car that your most comfortable with.

[Rat_Pack]

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Also while BE rears are hard to come by they aren't impossible and since that is one of the "key" COPO components people are even restamping them...

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Greg, I know of a guy right now that is building a Yenko clone, actually really good fake. He started with an X66 that was originally an L35 minus the engine. The rear was coded BL and he restamped the L to E. The kicker to this whole deal is that it is right in the middle of the first 50 Yenkos built in 69! I know that there are a few things that I will not mention here that will give the car away, but to the unknowing it could be passed off as legit. This situation is not the norm for most clones as the car is the fake. Now let me tell you what I looked at this weekend.

I had a guy send me to look at a car in Atlanta on Saturday. It was supposed to be a legit documented big block. Well everything was correct on the car, original engine, trans, rear, and even the shocks! No restamps here. This thing was beautiful! The owner gave me all of the documentation and I went and made copies at a local Kinkos. Well last night during the boring part of the SuperBowl I discovered the buildsheet was a fake! A very good one at that. A few things that gave it away were that some of the codes were wrong for his application. The shock numbers and the radiator hose codes were wrong. Not something I would have caught while looking at the car but only upon closer inspection. The fonts on some of the numbers were not the same as the original sheets I had for other cars built around the time his was. I told the possible buyer that the car was probably legit but the paperwork was bogus. He said the he would have to do some checking with previous owners to find out where the docs got bogused up before considering this car for purchase. So here is a situation where the paperwork was made to help document a car that really could have stood on its own without it.

About the only way we can keep this hobby honest is to police it ourselves. When everyone realizes that a trim tag, buildsheet, window sticker, or POP are items that should not be allowed to be reproduced, then the fakes are going to get harder to detect.

BTW, didn't someone get in a fight with the guy that repros the POP's at Bloomington a few years ago?...... .........RatPack...........

[Jeff H]

Greg, you changed your comparison. First you said a documented LS6 is worth more than a documented COPO because you think the LS6 documentation is more accurate. Now you're comparing a non-documented COPO to an LS6. Different story. Everything can be forged so nothing is better than anything else. That being said, a documented COPO is much more desirable than a documented LS6 IMO. A non-documented COPO is worth more than a non documented LS6 as well. But you can't compare a documented LS6 to a non documented COPO. I would take the documented car for the same money any day. Now if you're comparing a non documented COPO with matching #'s, then I would take that over the LS6 because the matching #'s is original. But I prefer Camaros if you're talking cars of equal value. This is my opinion and what I would do. No reason to argue because we each have our own preference.