02 zl1's

[sYc]

I would think putting 427s in more GMMG cars, and/or building more 427 cars would tend to soften the market for all 427 GMMG cars. As we all know, the value of collector cars is very dependent on the numbers game, especially the number produded.

I know I would hate to see Yenko start building/selling '69 Yenkos again.

[gemleeus]

i think the same thing would happen if more were out fitted with the 427, katech, more perf. and others can do the same thing but of course its not a chevy backed gmmg car. the 69 02 zl1's that were built had that documentation of being 1 of 69 units built as was in 1969. people then also installed the 427 in their cars, but bought the engine from the dealer or an other source. as far as the vin#'s go on those 69 02 zl1's designating them as 427 cars i don't know about that. maybe someone can explain that.

[NCGuy68]

[ QUOTE ]
I would think putting 427s in more GMMG cars, and/or building more 427 cars would tend to soften the market for all 427 GMMG cars. As we all know, the value of collector cars is very dependent on the numbers game, especially the number produded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom...your point is well taken.

However, Yenko, Motion, Dana, etc...would build a car to customer specs if so desired. I think Matt & GMMG are trying to again offer that service. I understand your concern about 'diluting' the numbers, yet its been over 30 years since we've had a GM car worthy of supercar status.

All comments are welcome.

[matt murphy]

I agree with you guys to a point; but, we really can't say how many Phase 2 or Phase 3 GMMG cars were or will be built because we are still building them. Again, Charlie's car is a good example . . . Yenko was still around 10 years later and that customer wanted to upgrade his Yenko and they did.

On a side note, there was a 1967 Shelby GT500 that was at BJ and the current owner restored it with an aluminum 427 race motor and the announcers said that Carroll Shelby authorized it and changed that car in his records now to be a 427 race aluminum motor car. I dont think 30 years later, a Shelby Mustang should have its paperwork redocumented. Joel could do that if he wanted to, so could Berger on their COPO Camaros, but those cars were built 35 years ago, and our cars are still new. We still have two ZL1's here that the customers have not picked up or taken delivery of. I don't think we should penalize any customer that didn't know about the engine upgrades when they bought their GMMG car or if they couldn't afford it then.

Anyway, for our cars, we agree to upfit GMMG customers cars as long as we are in business. It really is a service to those customers and we started to offer this service based on, "If we don't offer the upgrades someone else will," or the owners will probably do it themselves or have Katech, Lingenfelter or Moore Performance, etc, do it for them. And then what do you have ?? A Camaro by GMMG modified by someone else. As long as we do the modifications, then that helps further document the cars. We also supply Chevrolet with our VIN numbers and the engine packages so they can monitor them whenever a warranty claim comes up on one of our cars. So far, no major warranty claims have come up on our cars that might have alarmed Chevrolet, but they do like it when they can call me and I can tell them exactly what was done to a certain car.

We are not changing history, as far as our GMMG history goes because we are not done writing it. Yenko, Motion, Nickey, Dana, and Berger from the 60's and 70's are done with their history simply because that era is over and most, not all, of those performance dealers, and performance shops, are no longer in business.

The bottom line is that you are talking about asking GMMG to stop selling cars and engine packages so the others that have them will be the only ones. I don't think anyone would have asked Yenko to stop working on or building cars after 1969 back then, so the cars they built would be more valuable . . . If they did, then there would be no Dueces or Turbo Z's or Charlie's car would still be a base 427 car.

When GMMG goes out of business, we will close the books on these cars and then the customers will have to go elsewhere or do any further upgrades themselves. I really dont see us doing these upgrades forever to these cars, but for now, it is hard to say OK to some, but sorry to others. Most customers that have asked, know, that I wont build one car and say that it is the only one ever made, but I will say that it is the first . . . Seriously, the number of upgrades will slow down in the following years and the cars history as far as GMMG goes will be cast in stone or CD's. Until then . . . we will still offer the upgrades.

Thanks for your input and ideas. I have dated the engine upgrades so we can tell when they were done and if a new owner, or potential buyer of one of our cars, wants to know the specifics on a particular GMMG car, they can call us and get the info from our files. And NO, we don't charge a fee . . . maybe in 30 years someone will dig up our files and sell the info for big $$$. Probably not . . .

[gemleeus]

so, there isn't any way, for instance, years down the road you have one of these cars and it has no paper docs. that you can decifer what come on one of the gmmg cars by simply looking at the vin, pop, cowl tag etc.? i know the window sticker states the option.

[CWilliams]

Matt said all you have to do is call them and they have everything done to the cars by GMMG on file.

Matts got his finger on the pulse of the 4th gen. Camaro projects, whats overboard, whats just right, etc., plus he has the right background to be doing what he's doing. Mike, Bille and the rest of the guys are hot rodders at heart, they build strength, reliability, AND horsepower in these cars and they like to satisfy customers.

[matt murphy]

Lee,

15 years from now someone tells you a 2002 ZL1 is for sale at a used car lot in your town . . . You want to go look at it and you can't find my cell phone number to ask what to look for . . . Here are a few things to look for with and without a window sticker . . .

With a window sticker . . .

1) All of these ZL1's were B4C police cars called "Special Service Coupe"
2) All were built the second, third and forth week of MAY 2002
3) All had a dealer "Ship to" code of 08-386 (Bill Heard Chevrolet, Kennesaw, GA)
4) Dale Earnhardt Chevrolets name is on 24 of the window stickers, even though they didn't sell any of these cars. Berger Chevrolet bought the allocation from Dale's dealership. There are many different dealer names on the window stickers vs. the actual selling dealership. This will definately confuse things in the future, but something we did not forsee when the cars were ordered.

5) Obviously with our window stickers you will be able to tell the GMMG options, etc.


Without a window sticker . . . You need to look for these signs . . .

1) Look at the top pad on the passenger side of the engine block. It will read GMMGP1 or P2 or P3 for the base Phase 1 400hp, or Phase 2 475HP or the Phase 3 600HP engine package.

2) The VIN's ranged between 154530 to 161343

3) All were hardtops and 6-speeds originally (we changed 2 cars to auto #1 and #21)

4) Inside the drivers door jamb is a GMMG brass plate with the ZL1 car number on it as well as the dealer invoice number, our way to document and file the GMMG cars since the first one in 2000.

5) The drivers side rear axle tube has a blue painted area with the gear size stamped on it (i.e. 373 or 410 or 456), a way to tell the rear axle ratio without the window sticker.

6) Look at the Penske Racing Shocks (which are black in color with different colored top and bottom caps) and if the top and bottom caps are Silver then they were valved for Road Racing or Auto Cross, Gold caps were valved for Street Setup, and the Black caps were valved for Drag Racing.

7) The dash plaque and air cleaner sticker has the engine package info on each of them.

8) Look for the Corvette front and rear brake rotors and custome one piece front Corvette brake caliper bracket.

9) The rear lower control arms have solid rubber bushings in them vs. partial rubber bushings . . . these are part of the Police car suspension.


I could go on and on but I hope you get the point that even without the window stickers, there are tons of distinctive markings and parts and coded stamps that set these ZL1's far apart from any other Z28 or SS Camaro. I can't wait to see the clones or fakes some years down the road from now . . . or even the restored cars if that happens . . . It has to be neat for Joel to walk into the shows or look at one of his original Motion cars and see what has been done to it today, as far as being restored to the way he did them some 30 to 35 years ago. Some of the Chevy guys are talking about doing a book on these ZL1 cars and maybe including the other GMMG cars. That will have some incredible info and stories that will really amaze everyone on the history and making of these special cars.

One piece of 2002 ZL1 history . . . as I watch the 24hr of Daytona race on Speed Vision . . . I had the original Prototype car down there to show John Heinricy, the GM Engineer, who was racing that weekend in February of 2001 (who by the way is racing today as well in the #24 Corvette), and I ran into Dale Earnhardt in the pits with the car and we talked about the project and I showed him the car and its LS6 engine and the name was going to be ZL1 and we were going to build 69 of these. He told me he wanted 50 of them . . . I smiled as I was thinking of the conversation I just had with Matt Berger who told me that he wanted at least 25 of them. I told Dale that I dont think you will be able to get 50 of them since we are only going to build 69, and he poked me in the chest and said, "Fred Gibb ordered 50 ZL1's in 1969 and I want to order 50 ZL1's today." I said . . . "OK, I'll work on that Dale." Sadly he died the next week . . . but to his tribute, 24 of these cars have Dale Earnhardt Chevrolet on the window stickers and the next most dealers name on the stickers is 7 for Rick Hendrick Chevy and 7 for Henderson Chevrolet and only 4 with Berger Chevy on the stickers even though they sold 28 cars. All of the Earnhardt stickered cars were sold by Berger . . . A kind of poetic justice for Dale and Matt. I hope this was helpful to you and others . . .

[gemleeus]

i realize mr. murphy and gmmg knows and understand what they're doing. yes, right now he has his pulse on whats going on. down the road, years from now is what i was in reference to. thanks mr. murphy for your response to my question. i figured there was some kind of an identifiable difference between the 69 02 zl1's and the other cars you have produced. thanks again for your insight.

[82z96ss]

Just saw this thread for the first time. It is very informative. Thanks for all the information Matt.

But on another note, I find it sad that other GMMG cars are getting the C5R 427 (are they the exact ZL1 setup?). The Zl1's should be the only ones that received these packages. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one difference between the 69 ZL1's and other COPO cars was an aluminum block versus cast iron. So there is even a difference in the motors. Now the only difference will be a badge.

The ZL1 was supposed to be the bad boy of the Camaro , with others having the C5R 427 seems like others are getting the benefits of the ZL1 without paying the price of the ZL1. At least put a different 427 in the other GMMG cars.

Sorry, if my argument went off track, it is upsetting to me. So does that mean other GMMG cars can get a LS6 Phase 2 475 hp package instead of the LS1 Phase 2 435 package installed, etc... When do you say when?

[gemleeus]

i thought you read all of the replys in this thread. matt stated the 69 02 zl1's have various markings identifing them as the original 69 produced, those are already built and gone. the history of these cars have been set in stone. thats what i was in question about also, but matt explained that in detail. as in 1969 you could get the aluminum engines and set them in your camaro all day long, but that still didn't make it a zl1, same thing goes for the 02's. as far as money goes, the phase 1 and 2 cars were pretty expensive, now to send them back to gmmg and have the phase 3 package installed i'm sure would cost a lot of money, and well worth it i'm sure. don't worry there will always be only 69 1969 zl1's and only 69 02 zl1's ever made, and thank goodness for all the investment minded folks out there. i'll tell you honestly one thing that kind of puzzles me, i'm surprised to see the number of 02 zl1's for sale at this time, with people knowing the surely inherited value of these cars down the road. oh well maybe i can pick one up soon.