B-Motion Prod. #'s Bogus?

[whitetop]

Hello Rich, you make some very good points also. Yes Motion did have a very large advertising campaign. Many of the "New York" based publications had not just one but as many as 3-4 Bm ads in each issue. A problem develops here though. Many of these magazines were regional based in the Northeast. Had a small readership. I have talked with many people from the midwest and western states and most, back then, had never heard of Hot Cars, Rodder & Super Stock, Chevy Action etc. because these magazines were not originally available in those areas. My point is that this put the people west of the Missisippi at a disadvantage over BM sales back in '67-'73. Yenko did have a pretty decent dealership sales force throughout the country while BM did not, and Yenko only sold slightly over 200+ cars. I grew up with the NY based publications and new of BM. I worked full time for the National Muscle Car Association from '90-'93, before it went to the race car format as it is today. We had many knowledgable/"in the know" collectors in the membership and being a BM fanatic I remember asking them questions and most knew very little or nothing at all about the subject. These were people who had their car collections in magazines or were used as sounding boards for information. Why is it that everyone has heard of Yenko for years and inumerable magazine articles/books have been written on the subject, based on the "meager" 201/211? cars made. According to Joel, 500 BM cars were made. Common sense would dictate that based upon this figure alone more people would know about BM on car count, but this is not the case. So what does that tell you?. Musclecar Review magazine was probably one of the first to push the BM material back in 92-93 and went somewhat heavy with the material in '96-'98. I saw a program on TNN last year with Chuck Hansen of Horsepower TV, Chevelle club president/ex Car Craft editor fame. He made the comment that while hearing of BM, had never seen one of the cars in person. I'm sure he could not say that about Yenko's. I know you have bought your BM Nova brand new and Joel has told you that approximately 100 Novas were made. How many of the other 99 Nova owners have contacted you or have you run across. I'm just curious. As a final thought maybe Joel inflates the car count to make the BM mystique bigger than it actually was? Or not be second fiddle to Yenko maybe? Joel was quoted in an interview in a magazine several years ago that when the EPA was putting pressure on him in '74 he admitted he was just a small speed shop and everything was blown out of proportion in terms of car sales(or something to that effect). Hmmm.. I will have to dig that article out.
Whitetop

[rbernat]

whitetop,
your absolutely right in regards to motions influence in the eastern usa.motions ads were also heavy due to the fact that mr rosen was even labeled road test consultant and technical advisor in these magazines.in exchange for this motion ran these ads.that would most likely explain why many people including the govt.thought motion was a big
company.many motion cars in my area were just considered modified "hot rod"automobiles and treated as such."beat to the ground"i seem to remember public re-awarness in b/m cars after superchevy and car review magazine covered some cars in 1984-1985.i believe one of the reasons for the small number of b/m cars is the fact that after the cars have passed thru countless owners its finally regarded as just a modified car.without the paperwork or the motion emblems,decals ect the average person will not know.the engine numbers do not match"in most cases"so its just a hot rod.a case in point was the chevelle advertised on e-bay.pictures of this car show no real proof except fot the repro decal.it appears that only after finding the build sheet from baldwin chev.did a clue appear.this car was documented only a few months ago according to the date on the motion document.the high bid is another matter for discussion,is it worth that amount?
rich

[JoeC]

It is difficult to even estimate the number of cars Motion built but I believe he sold at least 50 1967 427 Camaros. An editorial in the Nov. 1967 CARS Magazine states that Motion built over 25 1967 427 Camaros and a few Chevelles in the first few months of 1967. In the same magazine there is a Motion ad thanking CARS Magazine for sponsoring the 1967 Motion SS-427 Camaro drag car which set two national AHRA records in 1967. They were: B/Hot Rod-F2 (122.44, 11.37) and B/ Modified Production-F2 (122.95, 11.33).
I believe that in order to race in AHRA classes you had to prove that your car was one of at least 50 cars built from an approved manufacturer. I have read that the Chevrolet Engineering Product Performance Group (Vince Piggin's covert racing dept.) supported the independents, who just happened to be tied in with Chevy dealers, to build at least 50 427 Camaros each to get them on the drag strip. Chevy needed to kick some Mustang butt to sell more Camaros. Bill Thomas Race Cars & Nickey/Harrell, Dana, Yenko/Harrell, and Motion/Baldwin, all had a previous history with race cars. As a side note, a guy named Mike Garfinkel who was a 1966 AHRA national champ., ran a 1967 427 Camaro sponsored by "Yenko Camaro Dealers" and by Dick Harrell. Harrell drove the car himself at the AHRA Spring Nationals in Odessa, TX.
I beleive Yenko sold at least 450 Supercars from 67 to 69 and Motion claimed in thier ads to be the largest Chevy Hi Performance dealer. I wonder how accurate Joel's records are. Don Yenko over stated his production numbers in an interview right before he died - or maybe just didn't remember them correctly.

[whitetop]

Hello Joe;

I'm not sure if AHRA or NHRA for that matter required that you have at least 50 examples to run in those 2 classes, Hot Rod & Modified Production. I always thought those two classes were "run what you brung" and cars were classed by cubic inch size. Now the Stock & Super Stock classes, yes required at least 50 examples, i.e Zl-1, Hemi Dart & Barracuda's etc. HR & MP I thought were an early form of bracket racing. How did the Boss 429 Mavericks get to run in MP. I think I remember seeing many run in that class, but I could be wrong. Any racers out there know the answer to this?
whitetop

[COPO]

This is quite an interesting post. After all these years, no one (except perhaps Joel) really has an idea of how many were BM cars were built. Whitetop makes some excellent points and I would tend to believe a much lower production number than 500. Not sure what Joel would gain by inflating the #'s. Perhaps he is counting the cars modified by his shop that were not purchased as new cars thorugh the BM dealership. Very interested to see where this post goes and if a close number is determined. I was one of the bidders for the EBAY BM Chevelle. It appears the market does not value the car as high as the owner as the reserve was not met after exceeding $41,000. After a $30,000 resto would the car be worth over $70K???? Perhaps.

[Fhakya]

Anyone consider getting ahold of Bill Mitchell? He's pictured in many of the old B/M write ups in HP-Cars Mag etc. as doing the modifying, tuning & testing so he would know, correct? Is he the same as "Bill Mitchell's Hardcore Racing Products"?

Just a thought.

[MrMotion]

This is a very interesting topic and most liking only to those of us who followed these cars in their time. Iam in the process of doing some historical research on a 1968 Camaro that we found thruogh parts ads. This car was a rolling chassis car we purchased it a got a GM Canada Documentation certificate that stated the car was equipped with the L78 SHP 396-375 HP engine, 4sd m22 ordered with a 4:88 gear, BLK EXT BLK DELUX INT ,full tint am-fm mutiplex white hockey stick stripe. After one year and countless phone calls, government dot listings only go back to 1977, through word of mouth one name came out which e traced. This gentleman was a GM research and development engineer who waspart of the team that developed the MarkIV engines. He ordered this car has the original numbered motor and parts,which we are ging to pickup.Original factory invoice. He trailered the car to BaldwinMotion shortly after and had the conversion done and has original bills from B/Mfor this work, and he says it took three days to do! Through our conversations he apparently was an very good aquaintance with the likes of Bill Jenkins,Smokey Yunick, Jack Roush. there are also picturse to document this car and we have already received pictures from other owners showing the condition of this car at different years. This car also held the a stock record at Detroit Dragway in 68.I believe this is not a true Baldwin Motion car but a Motion Performance coversion that is probably included in the total number of Motion Cars that Mr. Rosen can also document. He has verified to us that he can document this work with our documentation. We will keep you posted on the progress.