69 Camaro BB w Baldwin Chevy Connection

[MosportGreen66]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bbbentley</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know you guys love 69 camaro but cmon let's get real. Quarters cut up,needs all sheemetal,interior is wiped out,chrome shot, don't run,paperwork GONE,cmon really??? 50k later and you still have an undocumented car..Maybe I should go back to the guy I know with a original paint black L78 with its paperwork for 60k that I turned down and he can't sell it for over a year. </div></div>
There is something mesmerizing about an un-restored Camaro...I find it interesting,but the price is a tad high,imo.These time capsules are intriguing. </div></div>Again,When did it become cool to drive a POS around anyway? When I was a kid if you had a car this cool in this sad shape your friends all made fun of you! This is by no means a TIME CAPSULE. That term should be used as it was ment. Something that's been tucked away and in mint condition. Not something that was left for dead. This is just a fad right now with everybody falling in love with junk. And then at the end of the day you guys will have 40k of your hard earned money driving around in this shitbox looking like you have no job. I think we need have more pride in ourselves like we used to and get back to making everything you have as nice as it can be. I have a couple extremely rare cars that are much nicer than this and I won't bring them out because me being a body and paint guy my whole life can't bring myself to drive them unless they are looking the way they were built. I guess next we'll be living old boarded up houses and wearing torn clothes because that would be COOL to look that way RIGHT?</div></div>

Wait what?! Frame of reference bud...

I would rather own/drive/enjoy/spit polish/beat the shit out of/fall in love with/correct/and cherish that gold L78 than any of the half restored spray booth specials you can find in any where internet land including from on this site including from members who posted in this very thread. Why don't spray booth specials ever sell? They're not honest cars and 9/10 times over priced, rushed, lacking craftsmanship and have no character.

No one has seen this car in person (unless I'm wrong?). No one knows a lick about the cowl tag, engine pad, condition of the metal, drivetrain and other mechanics parts. You're basing an assessment off of craigslist photos.

The L78 here pending inspection, appears to be a wonderful entry level L78 with a bad ass story and with some TLC would make for a fun ride. Leave as is and enjoy. If I didn't already have a &quot;piece of shit&quot; [as defined in this thread - asinine], I would all over this car.

EDIT - now we're going to bring up this debate again? Giving real cars a bad reputation because no documents exist?! Guys, I know its winter but come on!

[WILMASBOYL78]

Well, you can really tell when the weather is bad...we are all inside staying warm in the virtual world [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I agree that a survivor car with an original driveline and no docs. is fine...especially when they have been out of circulation this long. I also agree that the survivor type cars are more fun and in many ways more interesting than the cookie cutter high dollar restos...I can say that because I have owned a few...just like many others here.

What is the real condition and how much would it cost to get this car road worthy...I guess we won't know until somebody here buys it...so come on boys...spread the wealth [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

[bbbentley]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WILMASBOYL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, you can really tell when the weather is bad...we are all inside staying warm in the virtual world [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

What is the real condition and how much would it cost to get this car road worthy...I guess we won't know until somebody here buys it...so come on boys...spread the wealth [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] </div></div>
That's the problem, my wealth is spread all over the shop in pieces right now [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

[Salvatore]

I do not really like frame off stuff but I do like them repainted and cleaned up. Full blown restorations are necessary on some cars but not all. I like them road worthy in nice condition. Not a rat rod type of guy. Like survivors the best and I know Don does too. He drives everything he has whether its is a restored Ram Air IV car or a survivor 6 banger pickup.

[GTO_DON]

That's why there's vanilla and chocolate Dan or blondes and brunettes if you will. If you want to drive a piece of shit around that's your right. And what badass story we talking about because it was picked up at Baldwin chevy??? Big deal! What's that mean anyway? Maybe seems cool to you because your from up that way. I guess I would think it's cool if it came from Reedman chevy but you have to call a spade a spade at some point. If you can't see that body needs work then I'm sorry but it looks like it hit everything but the lottery to me. Those quarters are cut pretty high to me. And again I'm sorry and not trying to piss you off really I'm not but cars without paper docs and good owner history never sell for big money! That's the way of the world. I didn't make the rules, that's just the way it is. You guys know that. I really wish you would buy it. Then get back to me when you want to sell it after you spent all the money it needs to get back of running and driving. Then you'll know what I'm talking about. I am not attacking you in any way but you always seem to get really pissed off when I make a point about a certain car. I've been in this hobby/Business longer than you've been alive and have owned and restored some very rare cars which I drive and beat the shit out of no matter how much they are worth so I think I know what I'm talking about and have a right to an opinion but remember it's just my opinion. No big deal. Let's be friends . Now I'm going back to shovel some MORE snow.You will have to shovel later I'm sure.

[Steve Shauger]

Some of the post are getting quite personal which is neither acceptable or necessary. We all have the right to an opinion.

Ok, here's mine with a couple of points:

If you pay someone to do a full concours level restoration you will be upsidedown in it based on the photos. If you want top dollar most buyers want documentation.

I have a passion for unrestored cars and get asked quite often what to do with cars, restore or leave alone (some cars are survivors and some just survived). If you were to do the bare minimum (thats to be determined) to get it drivable the question is; can you live with the way it looks? This car has great appeal because its a true L78.

I think everyone has different taste, knowledge, skills and pockets. Thats why there's always going to be a buyer for cars at all levels.

When I first started out, factory documentation was critical for me, as I've gained knowledge its not as critical. When a car is right it tells you a story and in can document itself.

Now someone buy this car, bring it to the GM Nationals and have it Vintage Certified [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img].

[MosportGreen66]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's why there's vanilla and chocolate Dan or blondes and brunettes if you will. If you want to drive a piece of shit around that's your right. And what badass story we talking about because it was picked up at Baldwin chevy??? Big deal! What's that mean anyway? Maybe seems cool to you because your from up that way. I guess I would think it's cool if it came from Reedman chevy but you have to call a spade a spade at some point. </div></div>

The car is loaded up on day-2 parts. The story might be untold at the moment but the parts clearly indicate such. A hi-performance dealer is cool regardless of location. The NCRS paperwork maybe able to support claims.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you can't see that body needs work then I'm sorry but it looks like it hit everything but the lottery to me. Those quarters are cut pretty high to me. And again I'm sorry and not trying to piss you off really I'm not but cars without paper docs and good owner history never sell for big money! </div></div>

Don, you're not pissing me off. You're looking at this Camaro through the lens of a business. I'm not.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That's the way of the world. I didn't make the rules, that's just the way it is. You guys know that. I really wish you would buy it. Then get back to me when you want to sell it after you spent all the money it needs to get back of running and driving. Then you'll know what I'm talking about. I am not attacking you in any way but you always seem to get really pissed off when I make a point about a certain car. I've been in this hobby/Business longer than you've been alive and have owned and restored some very rare cars which I drive and beat the shit out of no matter how much they are worth so I think I know what I'm talking about and have a right to an opinion but remember it's just my opinion. No big deal. Let's be friends . Now I'm going back to shovel some MORE snow.You will have to shovel later I'm sure. </div></div>

Again, I am not pissed off. You have the wrong impression. What frustrates me is your underlying theme. If you continue to stifle the next generation of enthusiasts who adore the day lights out of these &quot;pieces of shit&quot; you're ultimately going to hurt your own investment. Who my age is buying these cars? Fads and popular theme change - day 2, street freak, etc happened throughout time as tastes changed and generations came and went. As I've said before, enjoy the individualism of these cars and respect tastes. Its unbecoming to strong arm someone in an online debate with the sentiment of age, experience, and generation when ultimately its a flip-flopped argument.

Dan

[Tracker1]

I've been into/obsessed with factory-built American high-performance cars since the late '70s - early 80s... 12 years old.

During that time we've seen the restoration trend where a pretty good used car became a shiny show car (think Musclecar Review's resto of that LeMans Blue '69 Z28 in '82 or'83), accompanied by the boom in the re-pop parts biz. The same magazine spawned the term &quot;restification&quot; where subtle mods made your show car a nice driver with better brakes, better steering and a few more ponies, but nobody could see any of it just looking under the hood - the current F.A.S.T. race cars can trace their existence to that same term first coined in MCR. Then we started to see crazy, over-the-top restorations, e.g., guys like Roger Gibson where original paint runs and phosphate finishes on the heads of bolts were/are duplicated in almost obsessive compulsive detail, turning their nose up at the use of ANY re-pop parts. Then the term 'Survivor' was taken from the Corvette folks and applied to any muscle car retaining most of its original personality and identity under a sheen of &quot;patina&quot;. Then, hot on the heels of that, discovering a &quot;Barn Find&quot; became all the rage...everything now has spent time in a GD barn, &quot;comes with original rat poop in the glove box&quot;.

Now this &quot;rat muscle&quot; trend has taken hold: a barn find hauled from a shed or a backyard that looks like with a week's work it could actually run around the block - and that's what this Camaro represents to some people - Rat Muscle. (though I think a week's work for this particular Rod is a bit optimistic)

Now, that's four or five evolutions of stock musclecar (not including G-machines here) enjoyment, usage and associated terminology in just over 30 years. Trends are trends, you can't ignore them. Some people like a new trend, some people don't. There are definitely people who will salivate over this car because it looks crusty. And some who think it's a POS.

But if we all liked the same thing...

[GTO_DON]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MosportGreen66</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's why there's vanilla and chocolate Dan or blondes and brunettes if you will. If you want to drive a piece of shit around that's your right. And what badass story we talking about because it was picked up at Baldwin chevy??? Big deal! What's that mean anyway? Maybe seems cool to you because your from up that way. I guess I would think it's cool if it came from Reedman chevy but you have to call a spade a spade at some point. </div></div>

The car is loaded up on day-2 parts. The story might be untold at the moment but the parts clearly indicate such. A hi-performance dealer is cool regardless of location. The NCRS paperwork maybe able to support claims.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you can't see that body needs work then I'm sorry but it looks like it hit everything but the lottery to me. Those quarters are cut pretty high to me. And again I'm sorry and not trying to piss you off really I'm not but cars without paper docs and good owner history never sell for big money! </div></div>

Don, you're not pissing me off. You're looking at this Camaro through the lens of a business. I'm not.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That's the way of the world. I didn't make the rules, that's just the way it is. You guys know that. I really wish you would buy it. Then get back to me when you want to sell it after you spent all the money it needs to get back of running and driving. Then you'll know what I'm talking about. I am not attacking you in any way but you always seem to get really pissed off when I make a point about a certain car. I've been in this hobby/Business longer than you've been alive and have owned and restored some very rare cars which I drive and beat the shit out of no matter how much they are worth so I think I know what I'm talking about and have a right to an opinion but remember it's just my opinion. No big deal. Let's be friends . Now I'm going back to shovel some MORE snow.You will have to shovel later I'm sure. </div></div>
Qq
Again, I am not pissed off. You have the wrong impression. What frustrates me is your underlying theme. If you continue to stifle the next generation of enthusiasts who adore the day lights out of these &quot;pieces of shit&quot; you're ultimately going to hurt your own investment. Who my age is buying these cars? Fads and popular theme change - day 2, street freak, etc happened throughout time as tastes changed and generations came and went. As I've said before, enjoy the individualism of these cars and respect tastes. Its unbecoming to strong arm someone in an online debate with the sentiment of age, experience, and generation when ultimately its a flip-flopped argument.

Dan </div></div>That's where we differ Dan. You don't know anything about me and you couldn't be more wrong about me. We should talk this spring at the show and then you will understand where I'm coming from. I am not looking at this from a businessman point of view at all. Anyone close to me will tell you I buy most of my cars with my heart and lots of times lose money on them because I want them right more than I want to line my pockets. There's been times when I could have made money on a car just flipping it but I always have to put my touch on it and sometimes I make less for working on it but I get a feeling of accomplishment when I see a car come full circle and that's much more important to me in the end. I hate when I have to sell one of my cars because they mean a lot to me but my family has to eat and I'm not rich except in personality..(just see if your listening) Believe me when I tell you I truly want a younger generation to love these cars like me. Hell,I brought my son home from the Hospital in a 69 Ram air GTO JUDGE and the very first picture I took of him was on the hood in his bassinet next to the hood tach with the ram air decals positioned perfectly next to him so believe me NOBODY is a bigger fanatic of cars. I am not driven by the money but I am also a realist and if your smart like a lot of the guys on this site you have to treat these cars like an investment also incase of loss of job,illness or even death so I don't just piss my money away on a whimsical buy. You have to be smarter than that and I'm actually surprised that don't feel that way because Sammy tells me your a very smart well educated kid. And yes age and experience does fall into the equation here. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason for you and don't want to see anyone hurt in the end buying this car. I have no ill Will toward you,I just hate all these overpriced cars and the fact that sellers are taking advantage of this barn find craze where in right now. Now back to the weather!!!!